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Arphee

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We're talking about a system that wasn't originally in TNR. If you wanted to beat players, you'd have to rank up, cap, and work on jutsu levels.

 

Can't handle Jounin anymore? Rank up.

Same goes for Chuunun.

We all know the pros and cons when it comes to rank hokding.

 

I don't think that capped players should get shafted by weaker players in the same rank. I think it was Koro that told me to #gitgud and that's real talk.

 

CFH also favors the more populous villages. Which is why Konoki got super trolly with it. And that sucks. Numbers already help in war and with defending/sapping but good luck to another village that's much less populous when you add cfh on top of that.

 

I'm for disabling it and if it were to come back, it needs to have rank restrictions again. That's my two cents.

Kek you say this but you put litirally 0 effort into the math behind making it happen or understanding proposed sollutions or implementation, and I certainly didnt see you complaining when YOU were abusing it.

 

u - u this is why i never step forward to actually try and be on content, TNR players are bratty spoiled children.

 

But thats just like, my opinion man, tell me you want it disabled after reveiwing the numbers for my promosed quick fix over panas current autism, then i can take your hue hue #disableCFH seriously.

 

I disagree with your disagreement of my disagrement except for maybe Faithy's triumphant laugh. Villages still get locked down by people like say... Me. I'm just all for keeping it locked until it functions as intended because raiding kinda sucks when they only thing you can hope for is to kill the person who calls before they dko. I also disagree with Evi cause I got called on just yesterday and while I'm not complaining because two is a party and three draws a crowd, (wink wink salacious wink) I'm just saying it can still happen.

 

And Aelin, when have we ever not been in sync?

 

Get a room you two, stay on topic, or go bang, or both, but u better be on topic while banging if you chose to do both.

 

This thread will stay on its rails just like my training these past two years > . >

 

 

 

 

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God Band I love you being feisty hue hue

 

Arphee it was you who said that aggressive cfh should be put away to it's little cage? I agree with this. Conversation is on track.

What can I do when my sexual energy is so strong and people can't handle it? I can get the cat ears Arphee but you know it will not be cute ;) HUE HUE

 

But seriously fix the cfh please ... people are legit QUITTING because of this TORTURE

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Whoa hey you can not call Ken on that. Ken has complained about mass cfh from day one, I know cause I called him a a becth for it. He started calling because it kept happening to him, turnabout is fair play. Also note that you were against Evi calling someone out but you just called the whole of TNR bratty spoiled children and only one of those adjectives fit me.

I agree no agressive cfh but that needs time and coding, your math may be sound but it takes TIME AND CODING so I say disable it until such a time (... And coding) comes.

Also, Ae <3 Arphee r jealous

Edited by Banddragon
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Whoa hey you can not call Ken on that. Ken has complained about mass cfh from day one, I know cause I called him a a becth for it. He started calling because it kept happening to him, turnabout is fair play. Also note that you were against Evi calling someone out but you just called the whole of TNR bratty spoiled children and only one of those adjectives fit me.

I agree no agressive cfh but that needs time and coding, your math may be sound but it takes TIME AND CODING so I say disable it until such a time (... And coding) comes.

Also, Ae <3 Arphee r jealous

>Implying im only refferncing Kenshin

>Implying i dont think the same of people from my own village

> two wrong make a right

 

The whole lot of you are bratty overly entitled children including myself at times . _ .

 

The only difference is i take the effort to look at things from both perspectives and fix things rather than blindly screaming.

 

And if i call everyone out, im not calling anyone out xD and im certainly not baiting on flaming, i say what i say the way i say it because i tip toe on eggshells because im not very well liked by certain members of staff, and am used to having to watch my back > . >

 

Point in case "I had to do it to stay competitive" doesnt justify anything, i was here asking it to be reasonably balanced, everyone else was silent, werent calling for it to be disabled then, and either way trolling and whining for it to be disabled absent looking at proposed sollutions, or understanding the impacts or effects, nor /wanting/ to is hardly constructive.

 

:/ before anyone goes trololol disable, they should atleast know what theyre talking about, rather than blindly yelling for things, otherwise your no better than pana abritrarilly changing the numbers, im all for disabling things when they need to be disabled, and wont impact the balance and fairness of the game, this is not one of those times, and to see people callously ignoring the needs and effects of its removal angers and saddens me.

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It seems to me you're just calling us children and assuming we didn't look at it from both sides. I am in no way capped, I have to sit and look through my window to see people tearing my villagers to shreds because I can't stop them and I'm still all for disabling it. TEMPORARILY. I don't train just so Teni and Aelin can steal glances at my impressive infernal physique, I do it because I want to get strong. As it is now, the stronger you get the more people can call on you and the less you want to raid or defend. I disagree with you, Arph-Arph. I've thought about it, I've measured the ups and downs but I just disagree. Calling me bratty or entitled because I disagree is pretty bratty.

 

Also note that while you are pitching LONG term fixes that I have yet to disagree with, I'm pitching a short term until the problem (and make no mistake, this is a problem) is fixed possibly by implementing your plan.

Edited by Banddragon

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Cfh needs to be looked at conceptually again in my opinion. What's the point of doing math before even knowing what it should ultimately be?

 

Also, I'm pretty sure TNR was actually thriving when cfh wasn't a thing. Or when it had limited uses and it was more situational.

 

Reintroducing rank restrictions for cfh is the way I think it should be again. And that's just my opinion. You said not to troll, yet you just typed a trolly response which was rather hypocritical to your "the community wants to help and should give opinions and feedback" spiel.

 

No one is happy with cfh, so it should go back to the drawing board where it belongs.

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Soo I have some findings

 

1, The formula uses coeficient 1.8 it seems, and RSF multiplier was kept

2, Decently strong EJ in 6000-6250 range + capped jou can still pull off a 1-for-1  CFH on a capped EJ if the answer is late. But how late is necessary and how much SF you need is questionable

3. 2 jounins -might- do same but it's suuuuuuper questionable and I don't feel like dying 10 times to test all rounds and possibilities.. also EJs from other villages never wanted to test this before with me. Noone likes me :(

4. maximum possible usable limit for first call is cca 6000.

5. countercall allows for  capped EJ to call capped EJ just like before

 

So if 1.8 IS what was intended, then it's uuuuuh.. on the edge. But it was on the edge for jounins before as well. I don't know how it looks at lower SF ranges either, people kinda stopped trying after that first day when the coeficient was 1.5. But I have a feeling that right now with 1.8 it's not that much worse than before.

Edited by Evianon

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Soo I have some findings

 

1, The formula uses coeficient 1.8 it seems, and RSF multiplier was kept

2, Decently strong EJ in 6000-6500 range + capped jou can still pull off a 1-for-1  CFH on a capped EJ if the answer is late. But how late is necessary and how much SF you need is questionable

3. 2 jounins -might- do same but it's suuuuuuper questionable and I don't feel like dying 10 times to test all rounds and possibilities.. also EJs from other villages never wanted to test this before with me. Noone likes me :(

 

So if 1.8 IS what was intended, then it's uuuuuh.. on the edge. I don't know how it looks at lower SF ranges either, people kinda stopped trying after that first day when the coeficient was 1.5

 

Are you factoring the RSF limit nerf to  .82 from .87 because i dont feel like you are xD

 

 

EDIT:  Because reading and math are hard > . > ill tl;dr it

 

TL;DR 

 

Max SF to call Becomes roughly 6250 (Higher because rounding errors)

Max Callable SF Becomes roughly 6000 (Higher because rounding errors)

6000 SF Ej will still do better calling than 2 capped Jounin (This cannot be avoided under current SF system)

 

Like i said, mty 1.8 + *RSF with new RSF limits is a hotfix, not an be all end all sollution it just fixes things to as close to theyre supposed to within the current restrictions of our system.

 

Edited by Arphee

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Are you factoring the RSF limit nerf to  .82 from .87

which implies

 

 

Max SF to call Becomes roughly 6250 (Higher because rounding errors)

 

I didnt even notice this because I didnt see anyone raid other than Prince and nellis lmao. And their SF is strong enough for me.

 

Yeah it's like restricting a lot of bs I guess but some decent CFH is still allowed, not too much though. So I agree, it's kind of a meh hotfix.

 

Jounins still suck though ;o Especially if they wanted to fight for real and aim for 2v3. Impossible before, impossible now.

Edited by Evianon

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Cfh needs to be looked at conceptually again in my opinion. What's the point of doing math before even knowing what it should ultimately be?

 

Also, I'm pretty sure TNR was actually thriving when cfh wasn't a thing. Or when it had limited uses and it was more situational.

 

Reintroducing rank restrictions for cfh is the way I think it should be again. And that's just my opinion. You said not to troll, yet you just typed a trolly response which was rather hypocritical to your "the community wants to help and should give opinions and feedback" spiel.

 

No one is happy with cfh, so it should go back to the drawing board where it belongs.

Anyone saying to disable to CFH is clearly trolling, thats like saying to disable combat entirely because the entire battle system is fucked, im not trolling, or being hypocritical, your being shortsighted, incensitive, and inconsidorate to the needs of the playerbase at large.

 

CFH doesn't need to be reconceptualized, its intent and purpose IS and WAS very clear, and so was the broadening of its implementation. 

 

CFH = Give weak players a chance to retaliate against stronger players with numbers.

Counter Calls = Gives stronger players the chance to give village net positive for initiating combat

 

Other aspects of intent cannot be worked on until a complete system overhaul is complete, like disabling CFH troling by subjugating it to defense only, this does not mean the system should, nor needs to be disabled.

 

And rank subjugations isnt nessecarry under my proposed longterm system, and my proposed hotfix also does damage control to where people past or near the rank limits can no longer call, and when they can call, have to call at  around the mas sf level of the rank below them, so i dont really see your gripe with keeping ti enabled under my hotfix.

 

Also note that while you are pitching LONG term fixes that I have yet to disagree with, I'm pitching a short term until the problem (and make no mistake, this is a problem) is fixed possibly by implementing your plan.

So what are your gripes with the following previously posted hotfix that is litirally as simple as pana editing the numbers the same way he did for the current "fix"  e,e

 

"((7500 * 1.8 - 6000)* RSF

 

RSF limit set as follows in accordance with rounding errors the same way you can get way past  the 7500*.87 = 6525 SF cap

 

.82 to .76 = Round 4

.75 to .65 = Round 3

.64 to .55 = Round 2

.54 or less = Round 1"

 

:/ furthermore you SAY youve considered it, and looked at the other sides opinion, then tell me in what world do you think DISABLING the system will make any of the people complaining about the new implemention any happeir or less likely to quit? How does disabling the CFH feature improve the quality of life for average players?

 

It doesnt, it solves nothing, and its a core game feature, should we disable combat entirely? because the game is broken and unbalanced? because i dko nellis instead of winning when he has no elemental advantage? becasue Gen cant kill anything endgame? Should we disable combat? will that improve quality of life?

 

You can be offended by what i said, im not apologizing, i stand by my statements, and im more than willing to admit i can be childish at times, this isnt one of them.

 

 

 

I didnt even notice this because I didnt see anyone raid other than Prince and nellis lmao. And their SF is strong enough for me.

 

Yeah it's like restricting a lot of bs I guess but some decent CFH is still allowed, so I agree, it's kind of a hotfix.

 

Jounins still suck though ;o

And they will until my long term proposal is implemented it will be, but we have to work within the confines of the limited coding we have, i think its hard to argue that my proposed sollution is an improvement over the current hotfix, and the old system thats being patched.

 

Someday jounin will be relevant again under a sliding SF/RSF that rank penalizes, but thats a long time away sadly.

Actually y'know band and ken are starting to grow on me disable CFH entirely for like a year and a half, and never reenable it  people can "get gud" by ranking up.

 

Man i need to move to shroud, im taking TNR and its community seriously again,  this potato needs to be among the salt so i can evolve into a delicous frenchfry.

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Looks good at least for endgame but it's very early and morning math hasn't been a staple of my life since 6th grade (Kill yourself, Mrs. Harboden) but did you factor say, the aroundish 5k people in? Also, what to you is an average player? Because if I count, then I can raid without being double teamed like I'm some sort of professional star. I'm not the only one that feels this way,  and considering MOST of the cfh is coming from the same people then are they your average players? What makes them different from me? Also, you keep saying it's a core game feature but most of the userbase can't use it effectively and that's not hyperbole. Most. Also why the hell should you beat Nellis? You're both weapon, you're both capped and your beard does not give you an advantage. I still say Gen needs at least a minor buff but that's getting way off topic. I didn't say disable combat, I didn't say disable the tavern, I said disable Call for Help because the REAL core feature of the game is training and getting strong enough to win, not training and getting a buddy strong enough to double team everyone with.

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Why do you keep saying that it's a core feature when it was introduced in core 2? And who knows what time frame exactly? Because it sure didn't exist when core 2 first came out. 

So the real fact of the matter is that it is not a core feature. Standard PvP is. 

 

You not being able to beat nellis and me not being able to DKO Solar Soul consistently is a different topic altogether. Which honestly should be the first priority. And we know they're working towards that. 

Edited by KENSHlN

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Why do you keep saying that it's a core feature when it was introduced in core 2? And who knows what time frame exactly? Because it sure didn't exist when core 2 first came out. 

So the real fact of the matter is that it is not a core feature. Standard PvP is. 

 

You not being able to beat nellis and me not being able to DKO Solar Soul consistently is a different topic altogether. Which honestly should be the first priority. And we know they're working towards that. 

 

xD im too salty to take this seriously so im going to walk away now while my objectivity is in check,

 

Point in case i demand Combat be disabled until its balanced to my liking, clearly its broken, no one is happy with teh way combat is, so it should go back to the drawing board and remain disabled until its sorted. . .

 

@ band because im sick of quote spam

 

So every player weaker than you including at weaker ranks should die every time? whast the point of having ranks or caps then?

 

Counter calls need to be worked on beyond my suggested hotfix, but i cant suggest anything until i can confer with pana on how the current coding is implemented and what values can actually be changed via just updating values.

 

Disabling isnt th answer, your not the only person who gets salty after being chai nraped 12 times in a night by phantom and the rest of the catgirl crew.

 

I get salty too, lord knows i was salty when you lot fucking did it to me constantly > . > and when it was going down my response no matter what the salt wasnt "Disable CFH" it was "Please make it more reasonable"

 

Like i said walking away while im objective and clear minded, we'll have to agree to disagree and move past it.

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... Yes. Yes I train and get stronger so I can kill those weaker. The point of having ranks is immunity, strength and raiding is about speed. That's why ranking up is a calculated choice. I, at like 5k sf should be an easy snack for you, meat on the table if you're able to catch me. I should lose to you plain and simple because I choose to stay a rank under but I'm also able to kill Chuunin who have immunity from monstahs like yourself. If you look back, I didn't say disable it either at first, I mostly just said always allow counter calls but since we can't then Banddragon is on the temp disable bandwagon.  But I can agree to disagree, we just kinda have a different vision for the game.

 

Sidenotes: Catgirl crew made me chuckle. I applaud you for being able to see your own salt and remove yourself. I also see now that you actually have an Elem advantage on Nellis and am man enough to admit when I done f**ked up my elements. Go away, it happens to the best of us

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Why do you keep saying that it's a core feature when it was introduced in core 2? And who knows what time frame exactly? Because it sure didn't exist when core 2 first came out. 

So the real fact of the matter is that it is not a core feature. Standard PvP is. 

 

You not being able to beat nellis and me not being able to DKO Solar Soul consistently is a different topic altogether. Which honestly should be the first priority. And we know they're working towards that. 

 

If you're serious, it's time to get out. When it was implemented is utterly irrelevant to whether or not it's a core feature.

 

And for anyone who thinks that the old CFH system was better. There is an X on the top of every browser window (Top left or right, depending on OS). Click it.

For those of you who seem to think the new system is the answer and that I'm not going to change it for whatever reason, see a previous statement.

 

Like I stated, there has been only ONE change. Anything else that came of it is caused by the Battle System being shit.

 

If CFH was easy to tweak, god knows, I'd tweak it differently. But seriously, it isn't.

 

Oh, and to those complaining that fighting end-gamers means they'll die. Annoying, isn't? Knowing for sure you'll die? For real here. Take a moment to step outside your personal little world and look beyond yourself for a change. The majority of arguments and complains about the way it was boil down to just 1 thing. You don't want "fair" or "balanced", You want easy wins.

 

@Arphee. Whether or not we will nitpick and/or implement your system is still up to debate. We cannot alter the way things work at this time. We -must- rewire the Battle System first. When we approach the point where CFH is up we will come back to the thread.

 

And yes, you are blacklisted on TNR. I'm quite done with the nonsensical PM's you habitually send.

 

TL:DR

Yes, things need to change.

No, this is not easy.

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Please take my commentary with some salt (nnnnot the rage, meme-y kind, mind you), since I don't CFH or participate in it often enough to have nearly the sheer amount of perspective someone who's played multiple cores or since this core's launch, I cannot say that I have the experience to safely say I'm right with my opinions, so instead I want to ask questions.

If the intention was to make it so that two Jounin (capped stats and soft/hardcapped jutsu or not) cannot kill a capped (same case) Elite Jounin, as stated here:

42cc32ad9a.png

 

...what is the intended counterbalance for an Elite Jounin that can sit on the village, has the capacity, potential, and in-game experience (let's face it, if you're 7500 SF, you must have some idea of how to play the game on some level by then) to quickly heal injuries in multiple fashions that any attempt to Bounty Hunt/Chain-Attack them after combat is likely ill-fated, if not CFH or otherwise producing equivalent force (aka, another cap EJ)?

 

As it stands, IF you can manage it, I'm fairly certain that in most scenarios (full HP, rank-appropriate armor, softcapped or hardcappped jutsu rotation all around) a cap EJ kills a cap Jounin, if yet another cap Jounin somehow manages to Chain Attack before they can heal, that second cap Jounin would win outright, because there is no burning a round on CFH, everyone is intent on dealing full damage. They'd leave the fight limping and would be just an easy a kill as the EJ was. But then your statement is false. Because two cap Jounin DID beat a cap EJ. Different methodology, same result. Arguably more effort (and likely no longer your ''free kill''), but there's very few EJ that would fall for such a thing (or even twice in a row), I'm sure by now most are clever enough to hot-foot out and heal somehow if they take enough damage. Kinda turns what could be a stratagem into a blind gambit.

 

Again, I'm not really trying to instigate, I'm trying to gain perspective. I apologize if it comes off as smarm or sarcasm, but I've been burning to ask since I saw that post.

 

Pana-edit

 

 

salt-02.jpg

 

You forgot to add salt :P

 

 

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It's OK pan pan we believe in you. difficulties can be overcame with the strength of the mind. >:c

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My statement there is a bit out of context. Whilst 2 End-game J can kill an EJ, they shouldn't be able to call each other in, CFH should not be a portal to auto-winning (or as it was) auto losing a battle.

 

CFH should be a tool for the weaker people to have a chance at getting rid of pesky raiders. It should not be a tool where X-accounts can sure-fire beat an uber.

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Whilst 2 End-game J can kill an EJ, they shouldn't be able to call each other in

So they are supposed to snipe? Or what. And if they can do it with sniping, they can automatically do it with CFH. Because in CFH you have at least 1 round of double damage which makes up for the lost hit used for call.

 

 

 

CFH should not be a portal to auto-winning (or as it was) auto losing a battle.

Why do you completely ignore counter calls and what they do? Because if you dont want capped Jounins to call vs capped EJs, you don't have to worry, it's not viable if the EJ has a buddy.

 

 

 

CFH should be a tool for the weaker people to have a chance at getting rid of pesky raiders.

Capped J is a weaker people than capped EJ.

Capped EJ is a pesky raider.

Now we can substitute "capped jounin", "capped EJ" to your statement

=> CFH should be tool for capped jounins to have a chance at getting rid of capped EJs.

Voila.

Edited by Evianon
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Frankly I don't see the problem with slightly tweaking numbers until we get something that's more balanced. CFH on a capped EJ isn't exactly easy(talking about 2 jounins... not EJ's or 1 EJ + jounin) with the chance of the EJ having a stun, a seal and/or using a stance at the right moment + the risk of getting blocked by another EJ + the option of the EJ countercalling, and all of this is even harder if the EJ happens to have IE as their bloodline. We've seen it before.... if an EJ countercalls another endgame EJ then both the jounins die. In that case often both jounins die without being able to even kill the original EJ.

 

My proposition is to make the range of calls smaller, but big enough for a capped jounin to be able to call 6k SF in, also making the calls rank restricted would serve to give more reason for the jounin rank and would greatly lower the amount of CFH spam as well. And the idea of making CFH a defensive tool only is also a decent idea worth considering, sending someone to suicide call on an enemy is really silly and seems to ignore the original purpose of CFH.

 

Frankly if you remove the option of endgame jounins calling another endgame jounin in against an endgame EJ then that's a giant middle finger to the people who missed out on the many benefits of going EJ, and held rank thinking they would be able to CFH on EJ's to defend the village or to get structures down during a war, now I do not mean constantly doing it and farming pvp, I mean actually using it defensively for a village benefitting purpose. The amount of endgame jounins running around is already very small(3-4? with a few more being semi-close to endgame?). I see that this game doesn't like people holding ranks but it's a very bad thing to pull the rug under long-time players suddenly without any warning, this is how people lose faith in the game and quit.

 

Also why isn't Arphee's idea getting more consideration? 

 

 

 

Wouldn't it have just made more sense to adjust the RSF call range from .87 down to .8 and leave the *2

This seems like a very easy and obvious way to modify the system to make calls harder and less overpowered while still maintaining the core aspects of jounin and chuunin CFH. After all isn't a balanced system what we are after? I've also had the idea of maybe moving calls a round or 2 later, making the calling person have to tank longer and have them have less double damage rounds(2 people hitting at once)...making it a bit easier for the person getting called on to fight back and to win if they get a good stun or seal? This also opens up a window to future summons where a really strong EJ could even take on 2 jounin and barely survive if everything goes well... 

 

It's a bit weird seeing people who think that capping jounin somehow means you put in less effort than a capped EJ...I've been here just as long as a lot of them and sacrificed many things to hold this rank, arguably more than they sacrificed ranking to EJ. In the end TNR is a multiplayer game, your friends vs my friends, calls can be blocked and countered and they add an element of suspense to both sides while raiding(obv offensive CFH spam by a bunch of people is not fun, hence the idea of making it defensive).

 

Do you really want endgame EJ's to just DKO all day without having to fear dying?(obv there are some more OP bloodlines so DKO might not always apply). Being an uber already gives you the ability to kill most people of lower/same rank without them being able to CFH on you. Is it really that bad that a small minority in the game have a chance to trade 1 for 1 deaths with you? While also providing you(in this case an EJ) a chance to get a double kill against those jounins...with the help of your own EJ friend or lucky stun?

Besides I heard an update is in the works for increasing the role of defenses, since EJ caps are higher on defenses this will in turn make the gap between an endgame EJ and jounin bigger, no? Making EJ's tankier relative to jounin.

 

Anyway this was a really long post, so sorry about that, just wanted to share some ideas. Hopefully people understand the points I am trying to make here.

Edited by Sten
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If CFH was easy to tweak, god knows, I'd tweak it differently. But seriously, it isn't.

 

TL:DR

Yes, things need to change.

No, this is not easy.

 

Why? This is why.... And with this, the discussion is also done.

 

CFH can only be tweaked so far with the mess it is in now. I will not have Koala spend god knows how many hours trying to string together the rubbish of CFH in the hopes we can find out where and how RSF is calculated in the code. These hours are significantly better spend rewriting the System. It's not about disliking/disagreeing here, it's about not being able to.

 

Since that is constantly ignored, I'm done with it.

 

Thread closed until further notice.

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