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Arphee

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So CG is just complaining to complain, good to know.

Faithy, I shall adress your points:

1: You should not be able to be called on when the difference is only 400, if this is actually a thing then it needs to be edited.

2: Ranks aren't always terribly relevant. A chuunin with elemental advantage and high jutsu levels against a jounin with crap levels will still win out.

3: This is kind of a problem, but I can't really justify lowering the sf for people to join because it'll screw over the lower and higher people that try to utilize it. Maybe there's a balance somewhere that I'm too lazy to look for

 

As for your solution? Lies are power, and the few chuunin there are should be chained and used pull sleds through the salt mines. Not sure why there are sleds in the mines, but this is my idea.

 

Also it always seem to be the capped/near capped people that want to disable Cfh. No matter how you tweak, work or twerk it, 2v1 is going to be unfair to one side. I don't want Cfh to be disabled, but for people who want "fairness" in a 2v1 battle keep complaining that it's a 2v1 battle... What do?

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1: You should not be able to be called on when the difference is only 400, if this is actually a thing then it needs to be edited.

2: Ranks aren't always terribly relevant. A chuunin with elemental advantage and high jutsu levels against a jounin with crap levels will still win out.

3: This is kind of a problem, but I can't really justify lowering the sf for people to join because it'll screw over the lower and higher people that try to utilize it. Maybe there's a balance somewhere that I'm too lazy to look for

 

@ Point 1 At present cutoff  and call values are @.87

EJ = 6555 to call AKA 945 Difference with Max call = 7347.15 AKA152 Less than cap

J   = 5244 to call AKA 756 Difference with Max call = 5877.72 AKA  122.28 Less than cap

C  = 4195.2 to call AKA 604.8 Difference with Max call =4702.176 AKA 97.82 Less than cap

 

@ Point 2 

 

A 4800 SF jounin will beat a 4800 Chuunin with appropriate levels, stats, and armor, increased offense and general cap as well as armor values make it a garuntee, same with a 6K J V EJ, chuunin get a shorter end of teh stick due to lacking variation in jutsu and elemental availability.

 

@Point 3

 

CFH was never intended to be a crutch for people to win fights they have no right winning, Chuunin jounin and ej shouldnt be allowed to call against eachother in the first place, CFH is meant to give the legitimate little guys a chance against stronger players, not to endlessly abuse for easy kills at every rank with no per rank or per stat adjustements.

 

Two 6K EJ fighting a capped EJ is broken and wrong

Two 5K J fighting a capped J is broken and wrong

Two 4.5K EJ fighting a capped J is wrong

So on and so forth

 

Lowering the SF is more than nessecarry, higher SF players shouldnt be abusing CFH in the first place, it was always meant for weaker players of lower ranks.

 

 

 

Point in case the changes in who is allowed to call are welcome, and things can still be tweaked fairly with the new setup given time and testing, tho ghat dam is the TNR community reluctant to willing help kek.

 

You cant stop progress tho, expect an update to the main post of this thread with details on formula progres, since i know all of you are way too lazy to actually look at the spreadsheet let alone read the formula's in the cell.

 

 

Also @  "but for people who want "fairness" in a 2v1 battle keep complaining that it's a 2v1 battle... What do"

 

Fine tune SF ranges so balanced 2V1 matchups are allowed?

Remove HP variables from MPVP CFH to make more predictable and fair counter calculations?

Fix SF calculation updates to maintain permenant and fair calculation statistics that remain after users Die / Exit

Make counter calls a viable option instead of a rarity when abusing the system?

Tweak MPVP SF ranges to Insure counter calls dont insta-escalating to a capped player when sucessfully done?

Adjust counter call availability times to to ensure acess rather than 95% Death before call acess

Tweak SF/RSF calculation to be more accurate representations of  user strength relative to other users?

Build per rank penalties into sf calculation that automatically balances SF ranges to account for rank variences?

 

But thats just like, my approach man, not saying its the right one, but i mean, they are some options.

 

 

EDIT@ Faithy

 

Stop memeing faithsters, CFH wont be disabled so long as im around to yell at people > . >

 

@ Kenshin and other people talking about current SF calculation

 

SF BREAKDOWN

 

HP 1000 : 1  TOTAL  2500       AKA 33.33% OF SF VALUE

OFFENSE 1000:1 total 1250    AKA 16.66% OF SF VALUE

DEFENSES 4000:1 toal 1250    AKA 16.66% OF SF VALUE

Generals  400:1 Total 2500       AKA 33.33% OF SF VALUE

 

This remains true at every rank as the values are just  80% of the above rank EG

 

C HP = 1.6M @ 1600 aka 33.33% of C SF Value

J HP = 2M @ 2000 aka 33.33% of J SF Value

 

So generals and HP /ARE/ the two heaviest weighed factors, personally i think it should be OFF>HP=GEN>DEF

 

But that isnt something im trying to adress with my formula,  at the end of the day changing SF weights attached to stats would be paramount to semantics.

Edited by Arphee
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Interesting as I wasn't able and am not able to call when the difference is less than 500. However in the second point, I clearly stated that jutsu levels, armor, elem advantages and stuff take place. Cutegirl is above my SF and rank and I could still dko her while Slayze is below my rank and he still scares me.

For the last point, however, I'm interested. Give weaker people a chance against stronger people, what is that? Do you want two chuunin to call on a Jounin and dko. or do you want them to win? Because it still becomes the same problem since, as Slayze said, we don't really know what cfh is supposed to do.

 

As for your solution, I've already said though that not being able to counter-call is bs and that should be fixed. The permanent Sf alteration after calls sound good, too. I'm never able to counter, however, so I'm out of my depth there.

 

I like most of your solutions, though I'm still not sure on the rank penalties. Worth reading the bearded wall of text.

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Interesting as I wasn't able and am not able to call when the difference is less than 500. However in the second point, I clearly stated that jutsu levels, armor, elem advantages and stuff take place. Cutegirl is above my SF and rank and I could still dko her while Slayze is below my rank and he still scares me.

For the last point, however, I'm interested. Give weaker people a chance against stronger people, what is that? Do you want two chuunin to call on a Jounin and dko. or do you want them to win? Because it still becomes the same problem since, as Slayze said, we don't really know what cfh is supposed to do.

 

As for your solution, I've already said though that not being able to counter-call is bs and that should be fixed. The permanent Sf alteration after calls sound good, too. I'm never able to counter, however, so I'm out of my depth there.

 

I like most of your solutions, though I'm still not sure on the rank penalties. Worth reading the bearded wall of text.

Kek i cant remember your second element but i assume its something that gives you neutral typing against CG, there are a few reasons why you may be DKOing, Including but not limited to.

 

Severe Jutsu Level Disparity: Non Softcapped VS Softcapped, Mastery, or beyond

Shit Rotations: Player has no idea what theyre doing and not responding properly

Garbage stat distrobution: Just because a player has 6000 SF doesnt mean its in the right places

SF inflation: 125000 Tai Def and 10 Buk Def is still worth 625 in generals under the current system

Not actually wearing armor: This is self explanatory

 

There are a great deal of non-controllable factors that will alwyas give advantages to different players, including imbalance in game design, like how Vacuum blade used to be retardedly good and VF was shit tier before they redistributed the residuals on them, large amounts of these 3good5me or litiral shit jutsus still exist, like the EJ tai lightning special Lightning Lords which has 17,310 power,  a 20% Def debuff, Stun prevention, and flee prevent

 

And my Per-rank penalties are hardcoded into the calculation since SF is determined by the opponent your facing with STAT V STAT comparisons naturally sorting things, if your midgame and havent reached cap on your Offense or generals then you arent at any advantage,  if you have shit tai defense your more likely to need help against a tai player, if your a tai wall, you need less help fighting a tai player, simple, basic, intuitive, and wholely inspired by TNR's actual damage calculation setup.

 

Towards  "Do you want two chuunin to call on a Jounin and dko. or do you want them to win?"

Im assuming you mean endgame, but i want The chuu's to have a shot at winning, but i also want the jounin to be able to call in a scrub jounin or chuunin to back them up as well, and i want them to be able to do it with a reasonable likelyhood of sucess, and i want the remaining chuunin on the other side now slapfighting his fellow rank to get another weaker chuunin to come in and start slapping until equilibrium is met or broken via Offense and Elemental advantages.

 

Which is far outside the original scope of call for help, but remains the original intention and integrity of giving lower ranks purpose, advantage, and utility, against the rank above them, while still allowing weak midgame players of any rank to call against their own rank, the rank above them, or even the rank below them so long as its actually balanced and fair instead of the current shit show LOL

 

A 4K SF player deserves a shot at killing me legitimately with help if caught, and i deserve a shot to survive that encounter since i went through the effort of catching them,  and a 2000 SF Jounin doesnt deserve to be murder raped instantly by sleazy, because he's a jounin

 

And 4K is actually much more reserved than the current math,  right now, EJ VS EJ endgame is 5700 stat for stat Which lines up pretty well with my systems closest equivelent to full on cheesing like the current systems 6555 Max call 7347, Except its  max call 63xx with counter call even at peak limits being just over the capped Jounin threshold, especially after de-escalation.

 

PS a little behind the scenes the stat distro template  i used to test my systems exploitation is

 

RANK: EJ

HP: 1.95M

OFF 1.25M

DEFS 1.25M Opposite Pool of Offense, 250k Same pool as Offense

Gens: 250k Offense primary general and Non AOE Oppositte, 150K  for others

 

So like, tai would be

 

HP 1,950,000

 

Taijutsu strength: 1,250,000

 

Taijutsu defense: 250,000

Ninjutsu defense: 1,250,000

Genjutsu defense: 1,250,000

Bukijutsu defense: 250,000

 

Strength: 250,000

Intelligence: 150,000

Willpower: 250,000

Speed: 150,000

 

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Cg uses nin (offensive weakness) and water (biggest weakness) along with a higher rank and sf means I should have lost handily, but this is my point exactly. Ranks aren't everything and if you start discriminating by ranks without these factors, will R.I.P noob Ejs. But I again like your idea, I mean if you call in anything under a 4k Jounin against capped chuunin, they're screwed. The rest is solid, I'll leave endgame stuff to the end gamers but remember that Sf means more and more the higher you go up to the point where 2 3k jounin can lose against a 4.4-4.5k jounin. My biggest fear here is that the changes will screw over the nooblings (that need it) while stopping the mid gamers (that need to be stopped) and mostly benefiting the capped players (that hate it). Long as your change properly factors in little Jimmy 1.5k, I don't see any problems.

 

However there is no fix for Slayze. Slayze is a natural disaster that we all just have to learn to live with.

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I always thought of CFH as a revenge killing tool. Yes you can call someone in and your attacker/target dies, but you will die in the end as well (IN MOST CASES).

While it's annoying to die by CFH, all it is is players getting mad that weaker players killed them as mentioned by plenty of users above. You're exchanging kills while the person that gets called in gets a free kill, there is also another way to very easily stop people from calling on you if you can't counter call.

 

Just click this for the secret.

 

 

Have your buddy attack the person who wants to join instead.

 

 

 

CFH is achieving what it's suppose to do, let weaker players get kills, however that's only true for the person who gets called in, the caller will still die by you, if two players attack a stronger one but both the weaker players trained the defenses that is most effective against the stronger player should they not deserve to be rewarded for investing so much to being successful vs a target?

I trained a lot of weapon defense when I was weaker, which allowed me to call vs a few weapon users and survive / dko vs them, however I die insanely easy vs users of another combat style, it's how you train that defines how effective your character is in a fight.  : p

 

 

And yes CFH is suppose to get fixed because maths this and maths that, but the end result will most likely be the same.

 

Person A calls on Person B

Person C joins

Person B kills person A

Person C kills person B

 

Soo... ???

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That's always what I assumed it was, Purr, and is my vision of perfect cfh. The notion that you should Dko with both makes cfh seem like a petty tool (What's the point if you're both gonna die?) and I do kind of like rewarding for planning ahead. I want there to always be a counter call but I still couldn't agree with you more.. and I still  violently despise you for your wep defense ♥

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I always thought of CFH as a revenge killing tool.

 

You're exchanging kills while the person that gets called in gets a free kill

 

 

CFH is achieving what it's suppose to do, let weaker players get kills

 

 

And yes CFH is suppose to get fixed because maths this and maths that, but the end result will most likely be the same.

 

Person A calls on Person B

Person C joins

Person B kills person A

Person C kills person B

 

Soo... ???

So much wrong with the above statement kek.

 

No such thing as a FREE kill should exist, we have a very limited userbase and you need to work your ass off to catch people, thats where any semblance of SKILL comes into play with TNR,  a CFH link cant disppear under you when the user runs,  yes, you can to an extent do damage controll with blockers, but theyre at a disadvantage, There are two places a person entering can appear on combat list, and you can only spam click one of them.

 

And CFH isnt meant to "Give Weaker players kills" espeically not the original intention of the system, it was meant to give Jounin and Chuunin a chance to fight back against EJ and Jounin producing neutral or slight net-positive results.

 

IN its current state CFH does not acchieve this AT ALL, netting massive net gains on SF damage when CFH trolling enemies during war, as well as massive net gains for PVP during fights.

 

I really dont feel like ranting or trying to debate right not, If you think is 300% chill for 6000+ SF players to CFH troll and chill for free kills decimating their opponents with no chance of recourse, getting net positive PVP and damage during wars, then im not going to try and change your mind.

 

@Band

 

TOP kek

 

>Nothing you can do about sleazy

 

Sleazy can be CFH'd on too just need decent chuunabs to do it,  still gonna be hard too because sleazy is totally tricked out rotation wise, but definately doable at present, and definately doable under my system.

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I honestly don't feel like rereading this whole thread. 

 

Are we somehow able to make a more accurate calculation of RSF in battle if for example: 

Arphee attacks KENSHlN

Arphee is buki user~

 

KENSHlN has everything capped but 500k in weapon defense. 
Would we be able to make my SF revolve solely on my weapon defense + generals + offense + HP

instead of factoring in the other 2 'highest' defenses that don't matter in this situation? 

 

-edit-

P.S.  

Also disable cfh when it comes to raiders ramming into people hoping to call. 

I'd prefer people only call if they were attacked~

Edited by KENSHlN

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I honestly don't feel like rereading this whole thread. 

 

Are we somehow able to make a more accurate calculation of RSF in battle if for example: 

 

Arphee attacks KENSHlN

Arphee is buki user~

 

KENSHlN has everything capped but 500k in weapon defense. 

Would we be able to make my SF revolve solely on my weapon defense + generals + offense + HP

instead of factoring in the other 2 'highest' defenses that don't matter in this situation? 

 

-edit-

P.S.  

Also disable cfh when it comes to raiders ramming into people hoping to call. 

I'd prefer people only call if they were attacked~

 

 

if yall lazy asses would just read itd probably be in development by now, stead all yall pana includeddont bother xD

 

i agree tho cfh is a defensive tool attacking parties shouldnt be able to call, and the attacking party should always get last call chance.

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I don't know if anyone read Aophee's long-ass post, I definitely didn't xD

But I agree with this last bit here ^, you should not be able to attack someone just to CFH. It obviously can be a thing, but it shouldn't. Just seems like a cheap exploit on a cool mPvP feature :o

My 2 cents. Im not at the level of CFH trolling yet so Idrc what happens :D

Edited by Newg
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I agree, you should not be able to attack people to CFH. CFH should be for the person attacked, and counter calling.
As it stands, someone in the position of being CFHd on constantly and is not fully capped has to worry about weaker people AND stronger people killing them. It definitely discourages raiding.
Especially for me where I can't even counter call for 97% of the CFH situations I'm in.

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I also demand stun immunity when it's 2 vs 1. Stuns are already broken but stuns in cfh is even worse.

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I agree, you should not be able to attack people to CFH. CFH should be for the person attacked, and counter calling.

As it stands, someone in the position of being CFHd on constantly and is not fully capped has to worry about weaker people AND stronger people killing them. It definitely discourages raiding.

Especially for me where I can't even counter call for 97% of the CFH situations I'm in.

I agree with this especially since TNR doesn't have a lot for poputlation. It makes raiding very annoying when you have 5 people constantly CFH trolling you and you have maybe 1 or 2 people blocking for you. At that point since you can only ever trade kills or in worst case scenario lose to both then whats the point of combat. You die every time considering you cant counter call and trying to get revenge by killing one of them afterwards just means you get killed in cfh again. This means your at victim to constant CFH trolling without the ability to do anything about it since 2 people cant block the 5 who can join and you certainly cant counter call. This makes raiding undesirable and a nuisance. 

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Or your me and your pretty much borked from Day 1 of the SF system being implemented due to already being capped before it was implemented. :/

Edited by ReploidZero

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Or we can just you know, disable cfh until it functions properly just like everything else gets disabled when OP/bugged/doesn't function as intended. 

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Or we can just you know, disable cfh until it functions properly just like everything else gets disabled when OP/bugged/doesn't function as intended. 

ya disable because you cant?  :P  :D

 

Pana-edit: Lets not bait others.

Edited by Pana
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CFH does function way more than it doesn't though other than some minor bug I reported recently. You can call, you counter call, you can even go to 2v3, had that a few times last days. 

When someone says cfh is broken it's because it's not clear how it's supposed to work, or they dont like how it does. Which is their opinion, same as it's my opinion that tai is broken. Let's disable tai now. Yeah, no. 

 

Can't compare it with cfh chicken block - that thing we know how it's supposed to work, exactly. If it worked opposite way, then you can as well remove cfh from game. No-brainer really.

 

Im not saying CFH couldn't use a change but that's not easy. And noone bothers to either work on it or get people to do so, so yeah. We got what we got.

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Wasn't the whole point of this thread to change CFH and arphee gave a set up and the math for it? Then wasn't it just waiting on update to the combat system that is now being worked on by our new coder?

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But that's the thing evi, there have been fights where I can counter call up to 7.5k SF but RSF gets stuck at .88 so then I can't. And that's not even counting someone joining late into the call just to ensure I don't call. Then there are people that kill themselves to make sure I don't counter.

 

So counter calling is barely an option if any.

 

Call for help as a rank thing seemed more balanced and controlled then it is now.

EJ attack Jounin. Jounin calls in Jounin.

EJ attacks EJ and EJ can't call. #gitgud

 

I feel like Jounins are getting the best of both worlds. Can cfh troll and kill EJ fairly easily with it. Getting even more PvP than they deserve.

 

I remember back in the day....that people rank held without cfh just for the raiding benefit. And if you got tired of dying to higher rank, you ranked to beat them. @_@

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Sorry, noone except Arphee. I wanted to type that just forgot.

 

Jounins are certainly not getting best of both worlds xD we are screwed. You only say that because.. wait I dont even know why.. since the same SF EJ does way more damage and has actually chance to survive or dko in 1v2 while jounin damage is laughable. When you cap EJ you will realize that 2 EJ vs 2 jou is a complete stomp, especially with IE BL.

 

Your SF is in bad range so you have bad experience, and yes EJ callers can be super strong for this. But jounins? They dont got nothing cfh wise atm. 

CFH is dead for jounins at end game. And if you make global change to CFH to fix uncapped EJ callers, you will only screw jounins even more. That's the whole problem we have now. You could speak of different SF ranges, that's analogic thing.

 

Ye ye I know noone cares about end game apparently and problem is quite opposite for non-endgamers.. Well I know.. but I care about both and I dont bother to fix it or work on my ideas because

1, there's 0.1% chance someone would listen to me

2, I can as well use my ideas for my own game

3, I have my own troll in the making lol

 

And about back then. Im pretty sure c2 was way more active than c3, core where we have more active EJs than chuunins. No kidding.

Edited by Evianon
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You're right about the EJ thing. 5.5k SF EJ =/= 5.5k SF Jounin

Maybe boost EJ SF once ranked to EJ. Not sure of the math here, but for example~

5.5k SF Jounin ranks up would become 5.7k or something. Based off of jutsu power difference from EJ to Jounin I suppose. 

 

We don't have more active EJ. Check your village status. xD People just got smart and are sleeping more.

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Just for the record here. Regardless of my agreement or not to the CFH situation:

Changing CFH is -not- easy. Terr might know his way around TNR's mumbled up code, but especially since the battle system is such a mess,  Koala does not.

 

We are working on the Battle system, going through all systems and organizing, rewriting and fixing everything from the ground up. This is not a simple process, but unfortunately, if we want to be able to configure settings, add new things or fix the many broken things we have to.

 

CFH will likely not change easily, outside of a hotfix here or there, and this is solely due to the fact that the battle system is a mess.

 

EDIT: With that said however, we made a change to CFH. We are, however, not sure how the mubble-bundle will handle it.

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Players with Strength Factor of 4206.8 or less may join your side if you Call for Help

 

i got this when i was fight Castiel just now. 

 

okay...

 

15 Combat Angula2 Won

14 Combat SasakiAlGhoul Lost

I'm current 5935 sf 

Angula  has 4777

Sasaki has 4.8k 

 

is this suppose to happen with the recent update that rolled out today? 

Edited by Akum

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Pana i understand that it will take awhile to do since the code is a mess but fixing and organizing code is a step in the right direction and is nice to have.

 

@ Akum I got a message saying i could call in someone 3900 SF against Noah and its a .96 RSF battle so maybe somethings not working quite right. Thats up to pana and koala.

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