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Arphee

CFH

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Honestly I don't think cfh should be based only on those of same rank or higher rank just due to the fact that people choose to stay at their rank for one, leading to uber chuunin like kenshin and sarah who could wreck most chuunin and jounin to this day. So if you can fight us, and call on us the opposite should be just as fair. Honestly it seems like people complaining about this cfh formula for now without trying to figure out a better solution besides take it out are just salty. 

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You are afraid there could be a jounin who would hold cca at 4k SF so he can kill capped chuunins without dying. Well first you need two such people. They wouldnt be able to 1v1 neither a capped chu nor a capped jou (nor EJ ofc) - can't solo fight noone. They wouldnt be able to answer against EJ nor jou effectively (Im pretty sure I can solo 4.8+4k 1v2). All the kills they would be able to get would be thos "exploits" against capped chuunins, no other target to kill. And even this works only if they don't get blocked which can happen by about anyone - any strong chu or jou, even EJ, because they die to everything. 1 block = double kill. Have fun raiding like that. You get like 1 advantage while taking like 6. Whereas as capped jounin it goes 50:50. 

 

I never said we shouldn't fix it, I said it's not game breaking.

 

I only mentioned it because Occam's razor.. Keep things simple if you can.

Edited by Evianon
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It all comes back to the simple fact that SF at one rank is not equivalent to SF at another rank, due to caps. There should be a way to account for the difference in ranks. Hence my point that a rank penalty is needed.

 

And, like I said, a relative SF rating could also be useful. Perhaps the old SF could be used for users profiles, while the relative formula could be used in battle.

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Guest Faithy

Wasn't there a planned update to prevent person who joins cfh from attacking that round. ;o 

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No.

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What -would- make sense a bit more, and maybe what you want to block from happening is a jounin holding at 5.2k SF. Gets to kill all chuu solo, and has potential to call and survive against capped jounins (but can he? I wonder). Gets rekt by all EJ but move this a rank higher and that issue falls off. But how are you gonna 'rank-penalize' a 5.2k jounin without penalizing the 6k jounin as well? Heh. There sure is a way to fix what you have on mind, but I think it won't be called rank penalty.

 

Edit: But if you are still concerned about chu vs jou, never mind what I said. Yeah chuunins could use some helping out, be it with AOE or some rank penalty I guess

Edited by Evianon

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So we're going to leave an exploit based on speculation and opinion that it won't get abused...? Why? It's an easy fix. What's the argument against it?

 

Although Arphee's relative SF formula might address it. Eager to see his findings.

The formula is complete now all i need is actual user data, becasue we both know you can sit and focus on something all day by yourself, it wont break until real world application is forced on it, You, Pana, Evi, Slayze and a few others should send me a request for editing privledge.

 

Together we can collect the full-party stats for the caller and callee and see how well it holds up under typical use-case scenerio.

 

I have work in a few hours hours so i wont be doing it now, but im thinking of adding a third slot to the formula tester to account for answering players statistics, which should be incredibly helpful as well.

 

 

 

Band: Strength Factor: 4132.23

Ryukon: Strength Factor: 4027.73
 
Slayze: Strength Factor: 4710.5

Perfect test right here, All of you should like, PM me your stats.

 

 

But how are you gonna 'rank-penalize' a 5.2k jounin without penalizing the 6k jounin as well? Heh. There sure is a way to fix what you have on mind, but I think it won't be called rank penalty.

Well, due to the way progression is structured in TNR this is actually pretty easy to do, theres a set pattern of stats that /will/ be sequentially capped, these act as progress markers for the different periods of play EG early mid and late game, these are all periods in pursuit of capping specific stats.

 

No matter what bloodline or offense you are, your going to cap offense first, everyone takes offense to cap because its the most effective way of doing things, your offenses general will almost ALWAYS be the 3rd stat a person caps.

 

TNR if anything is predictable, i use that to its advantage, because these key-indicating stats will always be taken to cap and are indicitive of different levels of play they mark the best course of applying rank penalties, when factoring the other natural progression patterns, like the growth rate of different ranks relative to one another means that early, mid, or late game, despite different stat thresholds, the formula gets applied uniformly.

 

TL;DR

 

Due to the natural progression of TNR and stat growth and cap discreprancies between ranks its actually fairly easy to use certain key stats to apply penalties while letting the majority of balance happen from the games natural state of play.

 

Edit#69

 

So i was thinking the sleaze scenerio posted is a perfect example of this!

 

Ryukon and Band are both jounin, pretty far off from cap, but i gauruntee you that both of their offenses are likely capped, and that they've put a fair bit of training into their sub general as well-

 

Because their capped offense will be higher than sleaze-samas defense can possibly be due to chuunin caps both would have penalties applied to their SF.

Edited by Arphee

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Since my post was deleted for no apparent reason, I will say this again. An end game rank holder and a higher rank with identical SF will mainly just have a different distribution of stats. When I had like 6200 SF there were capped Jounin I beat, DKOed and lost to bast mainly on the offense they used. So if your new formula is already adjusting SF to prioritise the most relevant defense "rank restrictions" wouldn't really be necessary?

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Since my post was deleted for no apparent reason, I will say this again. An end game rank holder and a higher rank with identical SF will mainly just have a different distribution of stats. When I had like 6200 SF there were capped Jounin I beat, DKOed and lost to bast mainly on the offense they used. So if your new formula is already adjusting SF to prioritise the most relevant defense "rank restrictions" wouldn't really be necessary?

Yes the formula im working on doesnt require any rank restrictions, its a one size fits all SF formula that adresses all, or atleast most of the current issues via built in math principals (o-o)b Everyone can still call on everyone, they just have stat based restrictions and penalties to who they can and cant call that are much more fair and in line with the original intention of the Call for Help syetem.

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I'll send you my stats if the other two do too. O:

 

I sent mine

-Slayze

 

Just sent mine in.

Edited by Ryukon

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The formula is complete now all i need is actual user data, becasue we both know you can sit and focus on something all day by yourself, it wont break until real world application is forced on it, You, Pana, Evi, Slayze and a few others should send me a request for editing privledge.

 

Together we can collect the full-party stats for the caller and callee and see how well it holds up under typical use-case scenerio.

 

I have work in a few hours hours so i wont be doing it now, but im thinking of adding a third slot to the formula tester to account for answering players statistics, which should be incredibly helpful as well.

 

I've sent a request for editing privileges. I'd agree that adding in a slot for the player who will join the CFH would be useful, and would even go as far as adding one for both sides. If you're going to allow for both sides to call, you should attempt to balance for all situations.

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I've sent a request for editing privileges. I'd agree that adding in a slot for the player who will join the CFH would be useful, and would even go as far as adding one for both sides. If you're going to allow for both sides to call, you should attempt to balance for all situations.

No real way to do that with the current way RSF calculation is handled past the first call via HP updating, thats what causes the majority of imbalance, well, that and the fact that the calculation doesnt factor the difference of of double damage and debuffs when allowing for counter calls leading most people to die before they can get one off.

 

I think it could theoretically be done, if you plug in the battle formula between the two stat sheets and use an average jutsu power for a rough estimate but that would still be wildly inaccurate due to bloodlines and jutsu effects  playing massive roles in how much damage is done during the course of a battle, and thats ignoring the massive disparity between baselines for damage between the offenses.

 

TBH i feel like the HP factor of it all should be removed and replaced with static values, i havent put too much thought into RSF changes outside of the 76~66, 65~55, 54~44, <43 call targets, since the reduction of maximum strength, and SF factors relative to  the people actually being faced, should make things better on the  6000SF players all smacking eachothert hen suddenly CAPPED EJ OUTTA NOWHERE!, so at the very least it solves that problem.

 

But it doesnt solve the issue of people not being able to counter call at the lower end of the spectrum because they die off too quickly from dat dubble dammage, counter calls are messy as all hell.

 

It is a problem that needs to be adressed though, will start throwing together ideas once the plane jane CFH field is complete.

 

 

EDIT #1 EVEN MOAR FUN

 

So, i decided to say "Die HP calculation Die!" and begin theorycraft on a new Post 1v1 countercall formula. 

 

Combat will save the last entrant into a fights statistics, EG

 

Player 1 VS Player 2, Player2 uses CFH calls in Player 3 Player 3's SF is determined relative to the opponent they are called to fight, EG Stat V Stat against Player 1

 

Player 1 Counter calls against players 2. and 3, upon entry of 3 their stats were saved for SF calculation, meaning Player 1's countercall must be within SF range of ther player theyre being called in to fight against / counter.

 

Removing HP from the equation im using simple math of (SF2+SF3) / SF1 to determine the new RSF

Max call is determined via a step-down equation to normalize SF between ranks and prevent the current power creep that we see in which 6000ish SF players can counter with capped or near capped EJ

 

((SF2+SF3)*.8)*RSF = Max call

 

This allows you to call in somone slightly more powerful than the average of both user, while ensuring there isnt enough head room to call somone with huge stat discreprency from the rank above, due to the stat penaltys based on caps built into the SF formula itself.

 

This same principal is applied for counter calls beyond this point (Which should be rare given the SF restrictions and how close in relative strength counter calls are allowed to be.

Edited by Arphee
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I did actually start working on a rough HP calculation using the battle formula and average jutsu damage. There's no way to be totally accurate though.

 

I also think it might be a good idea to leave HP recalculation by the wayside. What little good it did in trying to more accurately gauge how a fight was going would be overshadowed by a more accurate SF measurement.

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The current cfh sucks...Sorrow who has 4225 sf can call against me in 4th round while i have 4816 sf..and i can't even call 2 rounds after that..me n Sorrow can almost dko...same with Touka n firecat

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Guest Faithy

lol I had that too... Sorrow is in the sweet spot for cfh trolling. 

 

 

12 Combat CedricLost

11 Combat Sorrow Lost

 

I couldn't kill Sorrow even when I focused all my attacks on it and even got a stun in round 2.

But the best part... I am "too strong"... 4800 SF... to call when I am facing 8000+ SF.

 

 

juu juu sweet spot = 4000-4200 SF.

Edited by Faithy
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Not just for Jounin, that Sf range works for EJ too. But what would you change? In both cases you're above 500 Sf over him, should he not be able to call with that much difference? Maybe lower it depending on the SF differential but being restricted to calling in someone with low SF is really going to be useless in higher level matches...

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Can a 6800sf cfh in 5th round against 7500 for 7000 sf person?lol then no point in capping just train enuf to survive n kill the ubers with cfh

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it all revolves around the way SF is calculated. 

Defenses shouldn't weigh as heavily as offense, generals, and HP. 

Generals being the most OP should weigh the most. 

But that can all change with a new battle formula that's apparently being worked on. 

 

(And then any difference in jutsu power when it comes to ranks is obviously not calculated)

Edited by KENSHlN

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I think the defences are heavily weighed in the current sf too, my sf is higher than those who have almost capped 3 gens n one gen a lil less while i have capped one gen n another gen is 190k ..but my tai n weap def are 330k n 400k respectively

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Defenses are valued in SF linearly, while in battles their worth goes from very strong at low values to very weak at high values. But your defenses are just fine and at the level where their value isnt overpriced in SF so all this boils down to is, at some SF, people have to be able to call on you. Right now it is what it is, at 88%. Make it less and you might help people who have really bad stats to survive but destroy the regular case for the callers.

One side hates for dying to calls

Another side hates for not being able to call

The first side is in majority because they dont like to die to weaker players 

Same story over and over. But it's within the CFH to make these situations no matter how you set it. We want weak people to be able to compete against stronger with CFH dont we? 

 

Or well, define what you want from CFH. Only after that is clear, proceed to complaints.

Edited by Evianon
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I actually agree with Evi. All this complaining but no one is offering fair solutions. A lot of this stuff isn't the fault of "the current system", but a product of mpvp in general and it's just the fact that you got double teamed that seems to be grinding your gears. However, Faithy not being able to call against two combatants is something I think should be changed.

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@Evi i have the right to complain if i find something unfair or unbalanced, cfh should help the weaker players but shouldn't be unfair to stronger players as well. I don't have a solution yet but if i do get any idea, i will share...

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Guest Faithy

Problem Desu:

 

1. I DKO against juu juu who are 400 SF lower than me in a 1 on 1 fight. 

2. CFH system doesn't see ranks, it only looks at SF.

3. I get destroyed by 2 juu juu who are super close/equal to my battle power. 

 

Solution Desuuuuu:

 

Stop the lies. Save the chuu chuu. 

 

or

 

Disable cfh.

 

but some people said there is a mythical update coming which will change stuff so who knows what will happen...

Edited by Faithy

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