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Arphee

Re-balance Crafting and Item Durability to a realistic standard.

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Suggestion Outline:

 

Honestly I don't know where to start on this one, but something needs to be done about the length of material crafting times.

At present it is my understanding, that Weapon durability drops as follows:
 

  • Each use of a Chuunin weapon jutsu deducts 1-2 points of the durability.
  • Each use of a Jounin weapon jutsu deducts 1-3 points of the durability.
  • Each use of a Special Jounin weapon jutsu deducts 1-4 points of the durability.

And Armor durability works as such:

Every Genjutsu used against a you deals 0 durability damage to armor
Every Ninjutsu deals 1 point of durability damage to armor per turn
Every Taijutsu deals 2 points of durability damage to armor per turn
Every Bukijutsu deals 3 points of durability damage to armor per turn.



At cap, Battles between users is supposed to be balanced to conclude in 10 rounds, as such an EJ user fighting at endgame can, per fight:


Damage their weapon(s) by 25 Durability
Damage their Armor Against Nin: 10 Durability
Damage their Armor Against Tai: 20 Durability
Damage their Armor Against Buk: 30 Durability


The highest weapon and armor durability items in game are as Follows

EJ Village Armor : 425 Durability (21 Fights Endgame)
EJ Village Weapons: 450 Durability (18 Fights Endgame)


Repair kit crafting Times for The above:

Armor

Ultimate Repair Kit
Craft time: 915 Mins OR 16.25 Hours  (60 minutes + 915)
Items crafted: (2)
 
Materials needed:
3 Radiant Leather= 45 Mins Armorsmith, 750 Mins  Weaponsmith
2 Steel Enforced Leather 5 Mins Armorsmith, 55 Mins Weaponsmith
2 Studded Leather Straps 10 Mins Armorsmith, 30 Mins Weaponsmith
2 Hardened Leather 20 Mins Armorsmith
 

 

Weapon

Radiant Steel Repair Kit

Craft time: 135 Mins (80 minutes +55) 

Items crafted: (2)
 
Materials needed:

2 Radiant Steel Bar 0 mins
1 Titanium Bar 0 mins
1 Steel Enforced Leather Straps 5Mins Armorsmith, 50 Mins Weaponsmith

 

 

 

As you can see

Set of  EJ Village Armor : 2,550 Durability (126 Fights Endgame) 2745 Minutes of Crafting to repair set once.

EJ Village Weapons: (15 Fights) 135 Minutes of crafting to repair Twice


There is a MASSIVE time investment difference between the two, with both being fairly unreasonable. Let's assume we have a fairly active raider, who gets about 150 kills per week. Let's say that they are also a Weapon User, and only fight people at their SF 1/2 of the time. Let's also be fair and assume damage done to armor is always spread out evenly.

600 Kills in a month Counted as 270 battles to factor variances.
Requires weapons to be repaired: 15 Times = 1080+150 Minutes 

Requires armor set to be repaired: 2 Times = 5490+120 Minutes

As you can see, this realistic data set, based on a middling raider at best, would require they have a combined effort of well over 100+ hours PER MONTH to maintain their gear to continue raiding. Assuming that they themselves are doing a portion of the crafting for their equipment, Armor costs 93.5 Hours of game time, and a Weapons cost 21 Hours of game time.
 

What would change:

Durability would be raised, or crafting times would be lowered to allow people to maintain EJ-Rank items while maintaining a real life, or at the very least the ability to raid in the game they're making items for.

At present the numbers necessary to maintain EJ items are unreasonable, and well beyond the scope of an individual to maintain. Hell, I'd go as far as to say that if someone took on the roll of front-loading the materials they would hardly be able to raid, especially if their play-time or schedules are limited.

If the game is going to be balanced under the assumption people have access to these resources- then I shouldn't need to say it, but they need to be made realistically accessible to manufacture and MAINTAIN.

All of the numbers posted in this thread were for the assumption of an average, MEH EJ raider. The numbers for someone actually going HAM at EJ increases those numbers by even further unrealistic levels of time to maintain.

I don't have all the answers here, and I don't know what numbers being changed would really be fair or realistic. But even so, I know that 45.7 HOURS of crafting to repair one set of armor is wholly unmanageable, unrealistic, and unfair given how long it lasts. And 15 Fights at full durability is way too quick for weapons to break at Endgame.


How it would change:

See Above

How it benefits us:

See Above

Why it matters:

See Above

EDIT: My god its worse than i thought, it was brought to my attention that radiant studs and plates are 125 minutes not 1 hour 20 minutes as i had originally thought, numbers have been adjusted to reflect the actual current craft times, which, honestly, they make the outlandish 9 hours for a repair kit that i assumed, seem REASONABLE compared to the current 16 HOUR ordeal.
 

Edited by Arphee
pls learn english Arphee ffs
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EJ armorsmith is hell, You never get to actually play the game. After they change it to force you to sleep during repairs it's 8 entire hours a day spent crafting kits and repairing 2 sets.

 

It already takes 28 hours to craft a complete set of Jou armor, I think it takes about 30 for EJ or so. It's a perpetual state of "Crafting/Repairing" that you can't do anything during and it causes even less active armorsmiths because they don't want to deal with it anymore, This makes it fall on the 3-4 active armorsmiths to do it for everybody.

 

This doesn't  account for the poor miners that have to smelt materials for 4 hours a stack with no exp return, And the poor weaponsmiths that have to craft for another 4 hours to make the studs from the materials they get from the miners, and the time it takes hunters to process the leather needed.

 

With all the mats from all of these professions and the full craft time of the EJ armor set it takes about 60 hours across all players for a single armor set, and it can be broken in under an hour just by casually raiding. Then it stays forever unrepaired because there's literally 4 of us.

Edited by Vestige
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There is quite a randomness in the craft-time for repair kits. Setting -all- to 10 minutes for the time being.

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wait so you made this line 

 

Craft time: 915 Mins OR 15.25 Hours  (60 minutes + 915)

 

into

 

Craft time: 865 Mins OR  14.42 Hours  (10 minutes + 915)

 

That's not it. The problem is huge timers on radiant studs and radiant plates, the fact that only 25 are made at a time (compared to 50 for other kinds of studs) and that there's so so many needed for just 1 kit.

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Idgaf ._.; I edited the silly difference between Repair kits, rest is for later.

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There is quite a randomness in the craft-time for repair kits. Setting -all- to 10 minutes for the time being.

Its nice to see some effort made, but the issue really isn't the crafting time of the kits themselves, but the materials used in them, its nice to see 50 minutes shaved off for armor smiths, but thats 50 minutes out of 975, and the weapon repair kits are already acceptable (Two hours is manageable, the issue is how quickly the durability drains when you factor endgame)

 

Like i said in the first post, i haven't really had the time to flush out a proper suggestion on replacement times since i'm a fervent believer in re-balancing everything connected to a given system, one of the biggest upsets in the crafting time at least for the Ej kits is the Radiant Steel Studs recipe, which for some reason produces 1/2 the number of studs as the other recipes (25 instead of 50), fixing that error, with the current 10 min status would bring the craft time down to 800 minutes, or 13 hours, which is still far too long.

 

The jump from Titanium to Radiant Steel is a massive time investment, and while i can see what the original idea was from bronze iron and steel, doubling just doesn't work when you start getting into massive time investments, which is why i would assume titanium had 9% increase instead of 100, but i cant fathom why radiant was given the 2X treatment.

 

I'm going to breakdown a few examples of what can be done here (Mind you only for materials, weapons and armor formulas proper will need to be adjusted eventually, but for now addressing the base components (Plates, Rings, Studs, Rods) takes precedence, im going to list a few different arrays and how they impact the EJ kit craft times after titanium studs have been corrected to produce 50 Vs the current 25, both with and without the 10 minute kit recipies

 

 

Armorsmith 80 Mats + Craft

Weaponsmith= Varies

 

Current material craft times (790 / 740)  13H/12H Per 2 Kit

 

Copper mats 10

Bronze Mats 15+5 100% Increase over copper

Iron Mats 30          100% Increase over bronze

Steel Mats 55+5    100% Increase over Iron

Titanium Mats 60   9% Increase Steel

Radiant Mats 125  108% Increase Titanium

-----------------------------------------------------------

Suggestion Example 1 Normalized Growth (675/615) 11H/10H Per 2 Kit

 

Copper 10

Bronze 15    50% > Copper +5

Iron 25         66%> Bronze

Steel 40        60% > Iron +5

Titanium 60  50% > Steel

Radiant 90   50% > Titanium

-------------------------------------------------

Suggestion Example 2 Set Growth time increase @15min (625/575) 10.4H/ 9.58H Per 2 kit

 

Copper 10

Bronze 15+5   100% > Copper 

Iron  35           75%> Bronze 

Steel 45+5      43% > Iron

Titanium 65     30% > Steel

Radiant 80      23% > Titanium

-------------------------------------------------------

Suggestion example 3 What feels right without math (595/545) 9.9H /9.08H Per 2 kit

 

Copper 10

Bronze 10+5  50%> Copper

Iron 30           100%> Bronze 

Steel 45+5     66%> Iron

Titanium 60    20%> Steel

Radiant 75     25%> Titanium

 

Even doing this leaves the numbers incredibly high, so i decided to look through some of the armor-smith recipes more closely and i see another huge discrepancy.

 

Steel armor repair kits only require 3 steel enforced straps and 1 hardened leather (10 Studs per strap + 1 Leather per strap and 2 Leather for the hardened)

 

"ultimate repair kits" Require 3 Radiant Leather, 2 Steel Enforced Leather, 2 Studded Leather Straps, 2 Hardened Leather

 

Furthermore armor-smith crafts are grotesquely disproportionate in their material usage, given that 1 Plate is equal to 50 studs

 

Radiant strap:         15 Studs, 1 Plate (65 Studs)

Steel Strap:             10 Studs

Radiant Leather:    25 Studs, 1 Plate (75 Studs)

Steel Leather:         15 Studs,

Radiant Bonded:    20 Studs, 1 Plate (70 Studs) 

Steel Bonded:         10 Studs

 

At the very least radiant should mimic the stud usage of previous crafts, if not be lower- given the addition of plates PER PIECE, 

 

Current Per Set Repair Studs:     225 Studs 

Mimicked Per Set Repair Studs:  135 Studs

 

It may not seem like much but with the above balance changes, even given the current disproportion of craft times, fixing the stud production and usage greatly improves craft time. Without touching current craft times, and just fixing the oversights this is what things would look like.

 

 

Ultimate Repair Kit

Craft time:   725 or 675 with the 10 min crafting  (60 minutes + 665) 12/11.25H 
Items crafted: (2)
 
Materials needed:
3 Radiant Leather= 45 Mins Armorsmith,  500 Weaponsmith
2 Steel Enforced Leather 5 Mins Armorsmith, 55 Mins Weaponsmith
2 Studded Leather Straps 10 Mins Armorsmith, 30 Mins Weaponsmith
2 Hardened Leather 20 Mins Armorsmith

 

But if you combine the Stud production + Stud usage fix, alongside something like the normalized craft formula above it becomes more like this.

 

 

Ultimate Repair Kit

Craft time: 570/520 (10 Min Craft)  (60 minutes + 510 ) 9.5H/8.6H  
Items crafted: (2)
 
Materials needed:
3 Radiant Leather= 45 Mins Armorsmith,  360 Weaponsmith
2 Steel Enforced Leather 5 Mins Armorsmith, 45 Mins Weaponsmith
2 Studded Leather Straps 10 Mins Armorsmith, 25 Mins Weaponsmith
2 Hardened Leather 20 Mins Armorsmith

 

This translates into  1710 Minutes to repair a set of EJ armor versus the current 2745, reducing repair times from 45.75 Hours per set to 28.5. this of course is still an astonishingly  long time compared to other sets, but would be a huge step in the right direction, and once the occupation update hits, the maximum 20% reduction from smiths apprentice + leather-worker should get the time down to 1368 Minutes or 22.8 Hours to repair, which is sort-of manageable.

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I would cut the craft times for weapon smiths' part of kits into something that would make overall need for smiths and armorers into 1:1, or maybe 2:3.. 1  smith needed per 1 armorer

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Let's also consider the fact that gathering Radiant and Rare Gems isn't the easiest job either, and as a result it almost makes you want to not wear EJ Village Armor once you finally do have a set. XD

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A much simpler solution to rescaling all the craft times, etc would just be to raise the durability of the armor... If it lasts longer, you need less repair kits xD

 

I know it's a pain to make the armor, but if keeping it repaired isn't a huge hassle then I don't think people would be complaining as much. Just increase the durability by a percentage that makes it easier to maintain in the long run instead of changing all this other stuff.

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Materials needed:

3 Radiant Leather= 45 Mins Armorsmith, 750 Mins  Weaponsmith
2 Steel Enforced Leather 5 Mins Armorsmith, 55 Mins Weaponsmith
2 Studded Leather Straps 10 Mins Armorsmith, 30 Mins Weaponsmith
2 Hardened Leather 20 Mins Armorsmith
 
That makes it
80 (+10 for kit) = 90 minutes for crafter
835 minutes for smith
 
The ratio is cca 1:9 now. Even if durability was raised 4-8x, that ratio is just plain stupid on its own if it stays..
 
Regarding mining vs armor - you don't need rare gems for repairs so that's not really an issue. Radiant bars may be hard to get but 18 radiant bars are enough to fix 1 set. I think that's okayish too? You can tell better.
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A much simpler solution to rescaling all the craft times, etc would just be to raise the durability of the armor... If it lasts longer, you need less repair kits xD

 

I know it's a pain to make the armor, but if keeping it repaired isn't a huge hassle then I don't think people would be complaining as much. Just increase the durability by a percentage that makes it easier to maintain in the long run instead of changing all this other stuff.

Evi summed it up pretty well, Both the durability needs to be raised, and the time investment lowered, the key issue here is nearly all armorer recipes are heavily Dependant on weaponsmith crafting components with often larger craft times than the items they go into making.

 

For instance look at the materials used for steel mats, 10,10,15 stud usage, steel studs are 5 Minutes (Steel Bar) + 55 (50x Studs), so a full hour of smiths time for 50, so 4 or 5 steel-enforced armor smith recipes, Which are only 5 mins for straps and bonds or 10 for steel enforced  leather per recipe.

 

So ever reaching a 1:1 or other reasonable ratio can, and will likely never happen unfortunately due to the way material usage is structured, and artificially inflating armorer craft times just because the smiths have to put in more man hours just hurts everyone in the long run.

 

The truth is, there's no "easy" fix here a combination of things has to be done to reach acceptable balance, trying to slam durability sky high doesn't really fix the issue either,  just lowering stud time does nothing to midigate EJ tier crafting because every recipie relies on plates in addition studs.

 

TBH the way i see it things that need to be implemented ASAP are:

 

Increase Radiant Studs recipe to produce 50 Studs instead of 25 (Like all other stud recipies)

Lower Stud usage in Radiant Steel Armorsmith recipies to mimick Steel usage

Adjust all "Material" class recipes to have lower top-end times (Fixed increase is probably the fairest option regardless of how much i favor example 3)

Implement the profession bonuses to Occupations to lower craft times by 20% when capped

 

Secondary things that need to be worked on:

 

Increase base durability of Weapons (EJ= 2.5(Av dura lost)*10(Endgame fight length)*50(Number of fights to last) 1250

Increase base durability of Armors(EJ= 1.5(Average Lost)*10(Endgame Length)*50(Fights intended to last) 750

Implement Weapon / Armor durability loss prevention chances into professions

 

 

Additional balances and tweaks:

 

?Add 1/2 Bonus value To Armor/Weapon for opposite profesion EX (If max would be 10%  on weap, they'd get 5% on armor)

? Add 1/4th Bonus values to Chef/Miner/Herbalist (If 10% is max 2.5% Each

(This will also help encourage everyone to get involved with professions)

 

? Normalize Weapon durability loss to be 1 on unarmored targets, 2 on armored targets regardless of jutsu rank used

? Lower Tai Durability damage to 1 like ninjutsu

? Potentially lowering Stud crafting times to 66% or 75% of a standard "material" recipe

 

Probably some more blatantly obvious things that i'm missing right now, but its 8:30AM and i haven't slept yet- so i'm hitting the hay, rest assured though ill be back reading this thread tomorrow with fresh eyes and responding to any posts.

 

 

Edited by Arphee

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The following is not set yet, but in the works. As such, anything below is subject to change.

 

Upcoming changes

Change to Durability

  • End-game battles will take roughly 15 points of any weapon
  • End-game battles will take roughly 15 points of armor, equally distributed among the worn parts
  • Weapon smiths can upgrade Crafted armor, increasing durability
  • Armor smiths can upgrade Crafted weapons, increasing durability

With that said, I will look into crafts a bit and fiddle with it. But this will be done with the above in mind.

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

EDIT: Taking this into consideration:

 

Armor

Ultimate Repair Kit
Craft time: 915 Mins OR 16.25 Hours  (60 minutes + 915)
Items crafted: (2)
 
Materials needed:
3 Radiant Leather= 45 Mins Armorsmith, 750 Mins  Weaponsmith
2 Steel Enforced Leather 5 Mins Armorsmith, 55 Mins Weaponsmith
2 Studded Leather Straps 10 Mins Armorsmith, 30 Mins Weaponsmith
2 Hardened Leather 20 Mins Armorsmith
 

UPDATE:
Ultimate Repair Kit now produces 12, setting it to 76.5minutes/armor piece to repair.

This is a hot-fix, not a fix. But ultimately, weapons and armor will take roughly the same amount of time per piece to repair. (This is not counting the 10 minutes to repair, this is equal everywhere.)

This also doesn't change the fact 2 people will have to spend 16.25 hours together to get them, but you'll be able to do so and actually get a large batch.

 

I'm doing it this way, since it's easier than look into all the crafts, recalculate, and then update things. Which I simply do not have the time for right now. It will happen, but that might take a few weeks, and this suffices for the time being.

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