Jump to content
The Ninja Forum
Sign in to follow this  
Azazel

Kage/Clan Leadership Holding

Recommended Posts

Well, this is a topic that needs to be discussed by the player base. So I figured now's a good time as any. I initially wanted to start a Suggestions thread regarding this, but wanted to gather the players' opinion(s).

 

Let's start by taking a look at our current rules regarding kage holding..

 

Kage-Holding:

As a general rule, moderators will not intervene in Kage matters as long as the Kage is reasonably active, fulfilling appropriate Kage functions in a timely manner, and engaging in ordinary gaming/training such that normal challenges from users in general are possible.
 

No Kage is obligated under the Rules to be popular or likeable, act in their village’s best interest (as villagers see it), or accept specific challenges from individual players.
 

If a Kage must be removed for appropriate reasons but is not in violation of any other rules (e.g., trolling), a perfunctory ban may be issued to remove the player from the position, but no other penalties will be imposed.

 

And we have our rules regarding fair gaming as well:

 

FAIR GAMING

All users are expected to play the game fairly and in the spirit of good sportsmanship. Cheating and other unfair gaming practices may include, but are not limited to: hacking, scamming, account sharing, account farming, statistic or kill farming, and Kage-holding.
 

Players participate in unfair shortcuts and practices at their own risk. Relevant rules and policies will be interpreted by their intended purpose, not by textual limitations. Loopholes and technicalities (e.g., getting real-life siblings to claim to “own†illegal ryo farms) will not excuse users who act contrary to the spirit of these Rules.

 

Now these rules for kage holding can be extended to clan leadership as well. According to the rules, kages are not required to be liked by the villages, which is fair in my opinion. Not everyone can be liked by everyone. So we'll just skip to the next part of the rule, kages need not accept challenges from individual players. Now this one right there takes the whole point of fair play and sportsmanship out of this feature.

 

In my opinion, when we call something as fair gaming, then everyone should get the a chance to explore and enjoy all the basic features in the game. Kageship is basic feature, open to anyone Jounin+. As per the current rules, whoever takes the village/clan leadership first gets to keep it for as long as they want, which frankly puts a dent on the whole point of fair gaming that we emphasize and borders on abuse. It's only fair that everyone Jounin+ has a fair chance at becoming kage/clan leader. And by fair chance, I don't refer to hand over the leadership as such. It just the users getting the right to challenge their current leaders.

 

Now, we might be able to figure out a few possible solutions for this, which you can post here. I have posted a possible one here, just to get things started.

 

A possible solution?

 

  • We can limit the number of times a kage/clan leader can decline challenges posted to them. We can keep the number of challenges that a leader can reject down to, say, 5 per week.
  • We can also maybe introduce a timer, which runs down the time within which the leader has to respond to a challenges. For example, let's assume the time for the responding to the challenge is 60 mins. If the leader hasn't given a response (accept/reject) till then, the system automatically takes the response as a rejection.
  • So if the leader, has already declined 5 challenges that week, he would not have the option to decline a 6th challenge. And if he/she doesn't respond to that 6th challenge before the timer runs down, they will be automatically kicked from their position.

 

The main idea is that, as long as a player is strong enough, he/she should have a fair shot at becoming a kage/clan leader. So, let's get started.

 

 

P.S: Keep the discussion sensible. No flames.

Edited by Azazel

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think this is a good idea to implement Azazel. It isn't fair for players to ignore challenges from other players who could potentially be stronger than them. However I would suggest making the timer's longer than 60min, just due to the fact that someone might not be able to log on to TNR for 12+ hours, in which they could've been challenged 5-6 times and kicked from their seat for not responding. Maybe make the timer 24 hours (1 Challenge per Day), and allow for 5 challenges with no response. If there is no response after 5 challenges, then they would be kicked from their leadership position on the 6th day. 

 

 

Even if the current leader lost their seat to someone weaker than them because they were not around to accept the challenge, it would be no problem to reclaim the throne. As you said, if the player is strong enough, they should have a fair shot at becoming kage/clan leader. 

 

 

Also now that we have a Strength Factor system, it would probably be good to implement a range for which one could challenge the leader. As in 

 

You must have an SF of _____ or greater to challenge the current Kage/Leader. 

 

 

The reason I'm suggesting this is because the current Kage could easily have a scrub challenge them and accept the scrub's challenge knowing they will win, which would reset the challenge counter and pretty much make this idea pointless. 

Edited by Nuktuk
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Might as well add some kind of timer for challengers. But don't they already lose respect or something if they lose the challenge? 

Edited by ENISHI

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I like the solution because as it stands if the current leader is not required to accept reasonable challenges then they can hold the position indefinitely which makes it pointless for anyone else working towards and aspiring to leadership positions. If challenges can be avoided all the time which makes challenging impossible, then there is no point in having the function as part of the game.

The solution is a good start but with obvious considerations to take in - for example the timer would need to be worked so it doesn't count when the player is offline sleeping or working as it would be impossible for them to even accept the challenge in time. Otherwise in one 8 hour sleep night a leader could be easily challenged 6 times and kicked without ever knowing they even had a challenge to accept (this is just a rough example off Ryu's  timer example).

But in the spirit of fair play and giving everyone the chance this seems like a good idea.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Even if the current leader lost their seat to someone weaker than them because they were not around to accept the challenge, it would be no problem to reclaim the throne. 

 

We can put a cooldown timer here. If the current kage/clan leader lose their position, they cannot reclaim it for, say, the next 48 hours. And the same can be implemented for the challenger as well. If the challenger loses, they can't challenge again for the next 48 hrs.

Edited by Azazel

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We've had the problem twice in Shine, since I have started playing C3, where semi-inactive alts have held clan leadership positions for months. They log in only enough to seem active, and are rarely caught awake since they may not train or do missions since that's not a huge priority on a lot of alts

​I've thought that maybe clan duties such as accepting members and spending points should be done while awake (like some of the kage duties). If they are performing reasonable clan leader duties, they would need to wake up more often, giving the chance to be challenged more possible. Though I do know depending on the village that may not be an often enough opportunity.
​I've also thought a PvP requirement like Kage, except maybe 25-50% of the village average could work towards not having inactive clan leaders too?
​Just a couple more ideas, since this has been a small problem.

Edited by teni
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Also now that we have a Strength Factor system, it would probably be good to implement a range for which one could challenge the leader. As in 

 

You must have an SF of _____ or greater to challenge the current Kage/Leader. 

 

 

The reason I'm suggesting this is because the current Kage could easily have a scrub challenge them and accept the scrub's challenge knowing they will win, which would reset the challenge counter and pretty much make this idea pointless. 

 

How about using RSF here? Only players with a SF of greater than or equal to 0.87*Leader_SF can challenge.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Except being kage is not a 'basic'  feature.

 

Not everyone is cut out to be a 'leader' even if the kage as a leader isn't as prevalent of a role as a leading role in other kinds of browser games (see: erepublik country president, renaissance kingdoms town mayor)

 

You should be careful when you talk about accessibility. A Jounin+ with high enough SF alone makes a good leader not.

 

Everyone should have the opportunity to become a leader, but a simple fight isn't really the best determining factor.

 

Also, SF is imperfect as a ranking system. It'd have to be something like 0.5-0.75, not 0.87.

Edited by Senryaku

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Except being kage is not a 'basic'  feature.

 

Not everyone is cut out to be a 'leader' even if the kage as a leader isn't as prevalent of a role as a leading role in other kinds of browser games (see: erepublik country president, renaissance kingdoms town mayor)

 

You should be careful when you talk about accessibility. A Jounin+ with high enough SF alone makes a good leader not.

 

Everyone should have the opportunity to become a leader, but a simple fight isn't really the best determining factor.

 

 

While I understand what you're saying about not everyone having leadership qualities, the village clans do possess the power to kick the kage if they feel he/she is not performing to their standards. Also it is highly likely that those who take the game seriously and train effectively and complete all of their missions every day, will know what would be best for their village and how points should be spent, unless they're an asshole and want to watch the world burn. Again though, if they are a jerk, the clans could easily see to that issue and kick the kage. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
 

Except being kage is not a 'basic'  feature.

 

How so? Any open feature is basic. 

 

Also, SF is imperfect as a ranking system. It'd have to be something like 0.5-0.75, not 0.87.

 

Sf pretty much decides how you fare in a fight. So having the RSF limit too low would be pointless pretty much. But we can maybe extend this to 0.8.

 

Not everyone is cut out to be a 'leader' even if the kage as a leader isn't as prevalent of a role as a leading role in other kinds of browser games (see: erepublik country president, renaissance kingdoms town mayor)

 

You should be careful when you talk about accessibility. A Jounin+ with high enough SF alone makes a good leader not.

 

Everyone should have the opportunity to become a leader, but a simple fight isn't really the best determining factor.

 

The system has no way to determine and evaluate if a player would 'worthy of leadership' as such. It can just determine if he/she fulfills certain criteria in regards to player rank, PvP,  loyalty, etc. And like Nuk mentioned, the clans have the ability to kick their kage if he/she's being uncooperative. So this is kinda irrelevant. 

Edited by Azazel

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

While I understand what you're saying about not everyone having leadership qualities, the village clans do possess the power to kick the kage if they feel he/she is not performing to their standards. Also it is highly likely that those who take the game seriously and train effectively and complete all of their missions every day, will know what would be best for their village and how points should be spent, unless they're an asshole and want to watch the world burn. Again though, if they are a jerk, the clans could easily see to that issue and kick the kage. 

 

Perhaps we could extend this "kicking" thing to village clans as well?

At least the key 5.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And I also feel, there should be a similar system for clans. We can make it so, that players cannot claim clan leadership right away. Instead, the co-leader positions can be made claimable. Then the co-leaders will select the clan leader similar to how the clans can do with the kage.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I assumed we were already including clan leaders in this discussion ._. or was it just me this whole time?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Azazel I think you're on track with this idea, go ahead and put this into the suggestions thread when you're ready.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If this was implemented, what would stop a clan leader just refusing to add anyone who could beat them to the clan? I think that is also a point that needs addressing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If this was implemented, what would stop a clan leader just refusing to add anyone who could beat them to the clan? I think that is also a point that needs addressing.

 

That's where co-leaders come in. The position of clan leader cannot be claimed directly. It's the co-leaders that choose the leader. So apart from the challenge, if a new player wants to claim and hold on to clan leadership, he would need the support of the co-leaders. It also means that all the leaders of a clan will actively take part in accepting new applicants. So new players, strong or weak, should have a fair chance of getting into a clan. Also both clan leaders and co-leaders can be kicked by the system for an extended period of inactivity, say 3 days.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Also both clan leaders and co-leaders can be kicked by the system for an extended period of inactivity, say 3 days.

 

What happens if the coleaders and leader is kicked? Is the next strongest/most active person automatically made a coleader?

​Co leaders with this system would be essential so if they are kicked you would need a replacement.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

iirc, you have to name a co-leader before leaving the clan and if no members are left, the clan is dissolved. (theoretically this is also how a chuunin could become a leader although I'm not sure if there's a guard against that these days).

 

Kage is by design difficult to attain and maintain anyway because of all the requirements; it was meant to keep the number of Kages low in order to give the position more "prestige" per se. Ideally Kages would also have a lot more of a role within the village but the potential for abuse makes that dangerous territory to wade into (seeing as their powers were reduced in the past for precisely this reason).

 

2 other thoughts: timing - how do you coordinate Kage challenges if there has to be an affirmative system response to a challenge beyond just an initiated battle (this is why a countdown timer and a limit on declines becomes an issue)?

 

And the other thing, in the case of the latter option, is that there should be a check on how challenges are delivered to stop an individual or group of individuals from simply spamming Kage challenges until the limit is reached.

 

(NB: Keep in mind RSF is an imperfect measure of relative strength, especially at mid-game, and also a combination of options A and B is also possible i.e. a set number of declines and then a countdown to accept the 6th challenge, or whatever values are set).

Edited by Cedzen

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

iirc, you have to name a co-leader before leaving the clan and if no members are left, the clan is dissolved. (theoretically this is also how a chuunin could become a leader although I'm not sure if there's a guard against that these days).

Core clans auto-assign the highest in the list if no Co-leaders are set.

 

 

2 other thoughts: timing - how do you coordinate Kage challenges if there has to be an affirmative system response to a challenge beyond just an initiated battle (this is why a countdown timer and a limit on declines becomes an issue)?

 

And the other thing, in the case of the latter option, is that there should be a check on how challenges are delivered to stop an individual or group of individuals from simply spamming Kage challenges until the limit is reached.

 

(NB: Keep in mind RSF is an imperfect measure of relative strength, especially at mid-game, and also a combination of options A and B is also possible i.e. a set number of declines and then a countdown to accept the 6th challenge, or whatever values are set).

I honestly don't think Kage is really an issue in the current state. If a Kage gets caught in a challenge, and wins, the failed challenger gets quite heavily cut.

 

That's where co-leaders come in. The position of clan leader cannot be claimed directly. It's the co-leaders that choose the leader. So apart from the challenge, if a new player wants to claim and hold on to clan leadership, he would need the support of the co-leaders. It also means that all the leaders of a clan will actively take part in accepting new applicants. So new players, strong or weak, should have a fair chance of getting into a clan. Also both clan leaders and co-leaders can be kicked by the system for an extended period of inactivity, say 3 days.

 

This would be quite effective. But in the end, wouldn't solve the problem. Just shifts it from Leaders down to Co-leaders.

 

A possible solution?

  • We can limit the number of times a kage/clan leader can decline challenges posted to them. We can keep the number of challenges that a leader can reject down to, say, 5 per week.
  • We can also maybe introduce a timer, which runs down the time within which the leader has to respond to a challenges. For example, let's assume the time for the responding to the challenge is 60 mins. If the leader hasn't given a response (accept/reject) till then, the system automatically takes the response as a rejection.
  • So if the leader, has already declined 5 challenges that week, he would not have the option to decline a 6th challenge. And if he/she doesn't respond to that 6th challenge before the timer runs down, they will be automatically kicked from their position.

 

As stated above, I don't really see much of an issue with Kage's as it stands. There are simply to many ways to get rid of them as it stands. The problem is mainly Clans;

  • If using your above idea on Clans, Leaders would be bootable easy enough, just like Kage.
  • Ced raised a valid concern on the Timers, how do you plan on stopping people from spamming it till the quota is linked? 5 is nothing if you have a few friends and want to take over a clan.
  • Why not simply link it to Activity points like Kage is linked to PVP? IE: Co-leaders would have to get X% of the total Activity Points of their clan. This in turn would provide multiple moments where one of them would have to wake up and allow for a challenge. Add in the factor that in order to stay competitive they need to do Missions, Train and hence wake up and run around.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Pana's activity points suggestion is a good idea as this ensures clan leaders are active players. The one issue I have about clan co-leaders, and I can only speak for Shine on this as I don't know the situation in the other villages, is that as a collective Shine opted to cut co-leaders and have just one leader for each clan (except one coz they are both excellent); this came about due to a couple of reasons.

 

First, we had issues of people applying for clans and needing a certain amount of co-leaders to accept but due to clan leader inactivity this wasn't happening and we had many frustrated new players unable to join a clan. Shine doesn't exactly have the largest active player base so suitable replacement leaders were hard to come by. The need for leaders to be active as suggested would hopefully iron this problem out though.

 

Second, we had issues between leaders. For example, one situation we had was a clan had a leader and 2 co-leaders, and players needed all three to agree to accept them into the clan. We had an instance where a player, who was actively contributing to Shine, applied for the clan and the leader and one co-leader accepted but the other co-leader declined. After throwing a tantrum about not being consulted regarding accepting new clan members and claiming they we're being disrespected by this (ok we're a small village and we want people to stay so this situation was not ideal and could make new players leave), the co-leader rage quit the game altogether... which is a bit sad in itself. So hence Shines decision to move to one leader per clan to avoid situations like this and it has served us quite well.

 

So I guess the thing I'm concerned about is creating the opportunity for more situations like this to arise and we just don't have a large enough base of strong active players to cover so many co-leader and leader positions for our clans. But I do acknowledge this doesn't solve the problem Authiel pointed out about leaders simply refusing strong players into the clan. So perhaps that would be where Nexi's suggestion comes in where the other clan leaders plus Kage (to get a majority vote) can remove a clan leader they feel is unfairly refusing clan applications and abusing their power - but it must be a valid reason, not just coz they don't like the clan leader.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Idk if this question was already addressed but... how exactly do you manage combat between Kage and people challenging them?

 

 

Player 1 Challenges Kage  -  Kage is offline

 

3hours later

 

Kage accepts challenge  -  Player 1 is offline

 

 

What exactly happens in this scenario now?

And what if one of the players is currently sleeping/out gathering when a challenge is accepted?

 

The idea isn't bad but getting a way to actually make it work is where you have most of your work cut out for you, in my opinion at least.

inb4 it's an easy solution and I'm just retarded.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am unsure of the value of these types of challenges. Kage's need to train, do missions, raid. All things that require waking up. Add to that the fact they need to keep the clans happy or get booted, I don't think it's a good idea to force a person to accept challenges.

 

 

Second, we had issues between leaders. For example, one situation we had was a clan had a leader and 2 co-leaders, and players needed all three to agree to accept them into the clan. We had an instance where a player, who was actively contributing to Shine, applied for the clan and the leader and one co-leader accepted but the other co-leader declined. After throwing a tantrum about not being consulted regarding accepting new clan members and claiming they we're being disrespected by this (ok we're a small village and we want people to stay so this situation was not ideal and could make new players leave), the co-leader rage quit the game altogether... which is a bit sad in itself. So hence Shines decision to move to one leader per clan to avoid situations like this and it has served us quite well.

 

I don't really think a single users temper-issues are of consequences here. There have been ample situations where people threw a tantrum because we didn't like him/her. If a clan does not want a user in, and most of those in charge agree, the problem doesn't necessarily lay with the clan, it might just be the user. Same goes with Co-leaders. If there is squabble between them, they'll need to figure that out themselves. You cannot design a system around people liking/disliking each other.

 

As far as applications go, (Co)-leaders should get something more visible when there are any, reducing the chance of them hanging around for god knows how long.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't really think a single users temper-issues are of consequences here. There have been ample situations where people threw a tantrum because we didn't like him/her. If a clan does not want a user in, and most of those in charge agree, the problem doesn't necessarily lay with the clan, it might just be the user. Same goes with Co-leaders. If there is squabble between them, they'll need to figure that out themselves. You cannot design a system around people liking/disliking each other.

 

Yes I agree, but it wasn't quite the point I was making - it wasn't an issue with that particular player trying to join the clan nor people liking/disliking each other, it was the co-leader power-tripping and hence the player trying to join was declined for no other reason than the co-leader wanting to feel powerful (ok abuse of power here). But the result was due to needing all 3 to accept the application the player wasn't accepted and basically said f@$% it and gave up, which isn't really ideal to encourage people to keep playing. I was just outlining the reasons why we made the decision to move to one leader and cut co-leaders.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That's actually caused because the system wants 3 out of 5 to vote yes, despite there not being 5 (Co)leaders. With Azazels idea Co-leaders are no longer optional.

Yes 1 person can screw over a user by voting now, but as long as there are at least 3 that support that user, he'll get in.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...