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Pana

Town Hall: Sensei and Students

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Seeing as how we're dissecting each other's posts.

 

 

 

1. That all depends on the person who's a sensei, some people don't do anything, others legitimately help out, some people actively seek new players to help teach them the game, others flat out dont take students, you give a man a forge coal and iron and he can make steel with it, if he chooses not to, the fault is with the man, not the provider of said materials

2 & 6. This is a PVP game, always has and always will be, Genin's place are scouting, socializing, running errands ETC, TNR is what it is, you seem to have this notion that Starcraft can also be The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim and Megaman 8 all at once, TNR is a stat-oriented text based PVP game, not WoW, Guildwars 2, or Fallout, if a dog is a dog, dont try to make it into a cat.

3. No, its much more harmful than that, Genin is the choice of absolute safety both of monetary gains and K/D count as well as being able to enter entering PVP with higher base stats to be more competitive in PVP in exchange for slower stat progression. and longer entry time into PVP combat the focus of the game.

4. I completely disagree with this, Genin can, and SHOULD be able to scout for purposes of peoples mains AND alts, scouting serves a legitimate function and gives genin a purpose outside of PVP keeping their village safe, or, co-coordinating with ANBU or other players to have better organized raids- as the genin rank is supposed to represent children, and they cannot attack people, they shouldnt be veiwed as a threat or targeted, and considering you stated lore reasoning and immersion, i would like to point out that Genin scouts are and were a thing in the franchise as well and makes the most sense as murdering children is akin to a warcrime.

5. FINALLY the MEAT AND POTATOES this is going to be a duzie

Ryo Increase- Serves no function, Genin houses, items, and hospital bills are more than low enough as is, there is no legitimate reason to increase the ryo gains, not any reason WHY having a sensei would increase ryo gains from a logical point of veiw, your just giving extra ryo to people who have scouting alts.

Mission Timer Reduction

PRE System revamp[- A disaserusly unfair advantage making chuunin rank absolutely useless before capping genin, MISSIONS are worth more than pools will ever be- one mission a day is better than GR for a week, and your doubling their missions per day- 16 D ranks VS 8 C ranks? The 16 D wins by a MASSIVE margin.

POST System revamp- effectively reduce the effort and input of 5 hours of play IF you do all 10 supposed missions under the new framework to 2.5 hours, this isnt as massively unbalanced as if it were implemented with the current system but still unfair and DECREASES user activity as people who are impatient will only be encouraged to stick arouind half of the time before logging off since their missions are complete, it also wouldnt make sense to suddenly go chuunin and LOOSE that buff.

Extra D Mission - Again, No, missions are immeasurably valuable one additional mission per day would practically make MOOT the Regen increase chuunin provides, if people doubt me ill pull up the old thread that did all of the math on how valuable missions really are so people can see what im talking about.

7. This is the only suggestion of Az's that i wholeheartedly agree with, a daily quest AKIN to EM's for Genin, and potentially their Sensei though as pana has said many many times TNRS AI system is incredibly limited, but REALISTICALLY for Genin, that provides a couple of VF per day to help out their village would be a nice little addition- especially if TNR adjusts regen dynamically based on player population genin included like it used to- which i dont think it does.

Oh and the one she posted while i was typing this mess, about more student slots PER rank and allowing Chuunin to potentially have students. 

 

1. You're only pointing out that the Sensei system has no function. Players can make the choice to "mentor" and teach players about the mechanics without the system. Thus making it an aesthetic option.

 

2. You seem to have the notion that games don't take the best parts from each other and relabel their system so they don't get sued. WoW is a stat-based game (you know, those things that you gain with each level) as is ES (again, those things that you gain from each level, and you spend points into upgrading) as is Fallout (weird, you level up and get skill points?) I don't think I've ever made a correlation between TNR and Megaman or Starcraft, and I haven't played Guildwars. So that being said, TNR is a stat based game, awesome job pointing out. And each of the games you mentioned (aside from Megaman, Starcraft and Guildwars, perhaps) all have leveling systems that increase your performance based on stats. Kinda how TNR does. The difference is the story line, music, PvE, and different applications of the same general aggression class, stealth class, and magic-based classes. 

 

Now that you tried switching the topic around from me stating that players should play how they want and that each rank should have things they enjoy instead of being forced to fit one mold, let's get back on topic. Regardless of this being a PvP game, there is a push for players that want PvE content. Not only that, but there should be genuine content across all ranks that take more than a few hours to get past. So if someone wants to immerse themselves into TNR which draws upon Naruto more than anything for inspiration, then Genin should have more genuine content based on that alone.

 

3. If everyone has access to the same amounts of content then I do not see this as an issue. The game itself is supposed to give multiple training methods, not just one. If someone chooses a method to expedite their progress while another does not, that is not the issue with the game itself. Choosing between having a sensei and receiving buffs/reduced mission timers and choosing to not have a sensei at all should actually have different impacts on your gameplay.

 

4. You agree with this only on the sole factor that you abuse it. If you're going to complain that Genin are completely safe from PvP and are a passive way of generating income without losing anything, it makes zero sense for your stance on this to be in support of Genin having a function in PvP. Additionally, if we're taking our information from Naruto again where those individuals were children, they got into an awful lot of fights. If we're "immersing" ourselves entirely, then we should honestly allow Genin to be attacked. People invading a village wouldn't just leave the children if they wanted to decimate it from the world. Those children would be either enslaved or killed - thank goodness Naruto isn't quite so macabre. 

Just on a game function alone, it is unfair - not to players near their level - but to players above that level. Example, there are multiple genin alts in Shine at the moment that abuse the feature, staying asleep one square from the village, waking up and attacking someone when they see them awake. Or even going so far as to go further into the territory to kill them as they do a mission. This is makes zero sense from a "fairness" standpoint as well as an immersion standpoint.

 

5. Ryo is an incentive gained from missions. In all honesty you could give rare items, reputation points, VF, diplomacy points, extra stats, regen, etc., etc. Ryo seems to be a standard way to give players an incentive. If every player was in fact an alternate account, then you would be right. It serves no purpose. But every player is not going to hold Genin. They haven't in Core 1, they haven't in Core 2, and they haven't in Core 3. So ryo would be put towards better houses/jutsus at later ranks. You will have players w/ Genin alts that actively choose to farm this option, but that is the nature of anything in this game.

 

Again, the mission timer reduction would be available to all Genin. If you're not active in the community, and actively choose not to take advantage of the revamped Sensei system, that is on you.

 

Everything is available to all new players. Whenever you add more content, someone is going to be past the point where they can benefit from the function. That is the nature of an update. Ideally, I would suggest more missions, items that randomly drop that reduce mission timers to all players, etc. That way Genin aren't getting a clear cut advantage over Chuunin. In all honesty, Chuunin (as Az pointed out) should have some degree of mentoring system as well. Getting more content, increasing everyone's gains so they can enjoy more content at higher levels, and giving players an incentive to actually use a system are all needed. This is only the Sensei/Genin systems, and you have to imagination these being upgraded alongside everything else.

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1. You're only pointing out that the Sensei system has no function. Players can make the choice to "mentor" and teach players about the mechanics without the system. Thus making it an aesthetic option.

 

2. So that being said, TNR is a stat based game, awesome job pointing out. And each of the games you mentioned (aside from Megaman, Starcraft and Guildwars, perhaps) all have leveling systems that increase your performance based on stats. Kinda how TNR does. The difference is the story line, music, PvE, and different applications of the same general aggression class, stealth class, and magic-based classes. 

 

3.  Choosing between having a sensei and receiving buffs/reduced mission timers and choosing to not have a sensei at all should actually have different impacts on your gameplay.

 

4. Just on a game function alone, it is unfair - not to players near their level - but to players above that level. Example, there are multiple genin alts in Shine at the moment that abuse the feature, staying asleep one square from the village, waking up and attacking someone when they see them awake. Or even going so far as to go further into the territory to kill them as they do a mission. This is makes zero sense from a "fairness" standpoint as well as an immersion standpoint.

 

5. Ryo is an incentive gained from missions. In all honesty you could give rare items, reputation points, VF, diplomacy points, extra stats, regen, etc., etc. Ryo seems to be a standard way to give players an incentive. If every player was in fact an alternate account, then you would be right. It serves no purpose. But every player is not going to hold Genin. They haven't in Core 1, they haven't in Core 2, and they haven't in Core 3. So ryo would be put towards better houses/jutsus at later ranks. You will have players w/ Genin alts that actively choose to farm this option, but that is the nature of anything in this game.

 

Again, the mission timer reduction would be available to all Genin. If you're not active in the community, and actively choose not to take advantage of the revamped Sensei system, that is on you.

 

This is only the Sensei/Genin systems, and you have to imagination these being upgraded alongside everything else.

This gets a bit long and i don't want to stretch the page, reply in the spoilers.

 

 

 

1. So your view is essentially, that anything that doesn't give a player a physical buff, stat increase, or number benefit is wholly "Aesthetic" and serves no function? i wholeheartedly disagree with that, just because someone has the option to choose to let a feature rot, or not take advantage of it doesn't devalue it as a whole, the difference made by actually answering peoples questions, giving advice, providing 10K ryo for the genin house, ETC are not "Aesthetical"  just because some choose to not use the feature doesn't diminish its value when properly utilized- that being said i DO think it should be an Opt in like it would be in any other game.

 

2. Again you misinterpret the point here, do games implement systems from others where they may apply? Does hybridization occur? yes, and its brilliant when it works, games like Borderlands and the Fallout Franchises wouldn't be possible without this- but said games are CREATED around this concept not SHOE HORNED in.

 

You constantly compare TNR to WoW and other PVE FOCUSED games, Yes WoW has PVP, but that isnt the focus of the game, Desitiny, PVP, but that isnt the focus of the game, MANY GAMES have PVP tacked onto it  but that is not the main focus of the game. this isnt runescape where you and your buddies all go level up run out do a dungeon and run a couple of PVP instances on the side.

 

TNR is PVP all the time, solely PVP, all players vying for power against everyone else- no grinding wolves to get to level 20 to reach the next story quest then to 25 before you unlock PVP, with...

 

SEPERATE GEAR, ARMOR AND GAINS FOR ENGAGE IN PVP BECAUSE IT IS A SEPERATE EXPERIENCE FROM THE CORE GAME TACKED ON TO APPEASE A MINORITY POPULATION

 

TNR lives and dies by its PVP its what this game is and is centered around, AS and GENIN are the tutorial phase before you get to play the real game- TNR isnt WORLD OF WARCRAFT, its CoD- where instead of Skill, you have stats, and instead of short matches its one VERY long VERY exhausting game.

 

3. No, it doesn't work that way- that isn't a CHOICE- what you suggest we give ADDITIONAL SEPARATE BUFFS for those that choose NOT to have a sensei? what kind of malarky is that? Playing the game the best you can, or deliberately sabotaging yourself?

 

In WoW you get EXP from kills to level up- you get no EXP in PVP last i checked when i played it during burning crusade

 

In COD you get experience and unlock things by killing other players, You dont get jack shit in online mode for playing the campaign storyu

 

In TNR you get Experience from training stats, and boosted progress via PVP gains

 

Im all for players playing how they want to play within context of the game itself and what works, i don't pick up call of duty and expect to cast fireball on a giant monster during a raid, and i dont pick up WoW expecting to no scope people with my dragnov.  No one is supposed to "Stay gennin"  and any "Genuine content" should be fore the sole purpose of teaching them how to effectively participate in PVP, Crafting / gathering, being a medic ETC which given tnrs systems is best accomplished- by guess what?

 

Learning and interacting from other players directly- no AI or tutorial can teach that.

 

4. Again, just because your village currently is having an issue with people playing the game as intended doesn't mean a feature is broken- people who choose to keep genin alts are sacrificing WELL over 60% of the monetary gain  they could have by ranking up to chuunin, even more if your factor in the ability to rob and the additional gains small crimes provide- plus errands give more ryo per rank as well. outlaws are virtually un-robbable anyway since they can access the ground anywhere on the map.

 

Nothing is preventing your or anyone else from resetting your alt and doing the same thing to scout when you need to run missions, or scout in villages while your trying to raid, genin scouts are no less fair than bounty hunter which is even more broken IMO as you can track someone to the ends of the earth- which is especially painful for the multitude of gatherers out there- less so now since the whole map is samui so territory scouting for them is thrice as effective.

 

Furthermore, genin scouts can only see the whole territory if their in your village to begin with which is just bad luck, - but anyone using a ragebar should be able to get 1 square outside the village and evade being seen fairly quickly, genin cant switch villages, so its not like it can be abused to raid whatever flavor of the month you want to raid, wherever your alt is, your alt is, and your stuck there.

 

 

5. I cant really tell what this first paragraph is referencing- something along the lines of "Mission rewards, something something, ryo" i assume your trying to make the point that adding ryo to missions would incentivize them more? Which is already a planned feature, for everyone, not just genin with sensei, and i stand by my statement that genin ryo gains are fine the way they are as someone who survives solely off of them and has survived solely off of them his entire time playing TNR.

 

Towards the Mission Timer Reduction you didn't address under which state it would be implemented in, ill assume POST Mission-revamp, because even an autist could tell how unbalanced giving genin 16 D rank missions a day would be- so 15 minutes per mission still a max of 10 2.5 hours sitting in front of a screen, i'm fine with, its a convenience advantage over chuunin, but doesn't unbalance things.

 

But it does give a false sense of what TNR is and leaves people ill-prepared for the real world when they rank up and need to start spending 5 hours worth of time on TNR with the rest of the big-boys, so again, as ive said, the reduction timer, AFTER the mission system has been changed to the new layout, im fine with,

 

Genin as it is is fine, honestly, would be nice if they had access to some kind of bare-bones tutorial type systems to familiarize them with Professions and other features they'll be using at Chuu+ but that's it, genin is a placeholder rank for people to socialize and farm ryo without engaging in actual PVP fights.

 

 

 

 

Genin itself as a rank, is a separate discussion, this is for the Sensei system, something intended to act as a mentor program, not core features of genin as a rank, or improvements to the state of genin PVE content or "lack of features"

 

As it stands my position is as follows, and it seems most everyone agrees more "aesthetic" features to encourage and improve sensei-student relationships is a plus

 

1. Allow Chuunin to become Sensei

2. Raise EJ student cap to 5 Chuunin to 1

3a Implement small stat training benefit preferably 10% raising genin progression to 60% of chuunin

3b increase percentage for players who match offense with their sensei,  (Prefferably 15% since double the base bonus would be too high)

3 Lower AS and Genin item prices in the store by a small amount (Probably like 10% again)

4 Allow Sensei to view students stats

5 Make Sensei and Opt-in feature instead of every jounin + being veiweed as a sensei

6 Add a sensei board to help players find each other and connect- tavern is archaic when things are actually active

7 implement Sensei's Orders to allow people to write training guidlines and host simple contests Etc for their students

8 Implement a student list, allow players to see their current and past students and track activity

9 Implement Genin daily quest that rewards VF + ryo? (Would be cool if there were a few of them centered around different stat distrobutions to mimic the kinds of stats freshly ranked chuunin would have)

 

Potential additions

? Allow students to spectate sensei's Battles to learn about PVP

? Reduced mission timers POST mission revamp Eg 15 minutes max 10

? Reduce Ramen and Hospital costs? Kind of unnecessary at genin....but why not right.

 

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I don't know for sure, but it would seem to me that implementing a sensei feature with benefits will just be an overall bad idea. Don't you guys remember core2? charging for players to be their students, the smaller villages will not have enough sensei and players will quit/leave smaller villages to play in larger ones just so they can have the stat boost. I just don't see how the sensei feature will improve this game for new players, it speeds up training for people who decide to stay genin for the protection. I actually have to turn people down from being my student pretty often because I don't have space but I always am able to help them by answering a question or directing them to the tavern/forum/staff.

 

[ spoiler ] put this / before the second spoiler

 

 

Edited by Link

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Welp. No clue how to use the spoiler thing, so I'll just respond without it.

 

1. Yes, anything that does not serve an actual function in the game - this one being as you said, a stat-based game - is purely aesthetic. Everything you mentioned can be done without even having a Sensei. So, general rule, if you can accomplish doing something without even needing the system in question, the system is unnecessary.

 

2. TNR has meaningless PvP. Multiple threads have shown an interest in PvE features in this MMORPG, suggesting the inclusion of the feature into War, missions, daily events, etc. TNR is an MMORPG in a Beta stage that doesn't currently have many engaging PvE elements. All of your events are generally PvE based, not PvP. Your claim would be more viable if this wasn't the case for the previous cores. Additionally, what I'm saying is instead of staying in the same mold that is currently a sinking ship, we include more features to make the game more presentable. PvE on itself will only grab a portion of the total audience, just like PvP on itself will only grab a portion of the total audience. Instead of neglecting one or the other, having both be engaging and enjoyable like other MMORPGs would be the ideal if we want TNR to have a larger audience.

 

3. In WoW - when I last played in Cataclysm - I did get PvP for capturing objectives and finishing quests centered around PvP. COD does have separate story modes and online modes. But it is not an MMORPG like TNR is. COD doesn't have stats, it has guns that you unlock. COD centers more around the skill of the individual in constantly changing combat scenarios. Essentially, you progress in COD through skill and muscle memory, not through statistical advantages. 

It IS a choice to train effectively. Players can choose to rank up and receive extra regen, launching them closer to Jounin or increasing their HP gain from an EM and a mission with greater buffs, potentially taking their career to Jounin for even further gains. Or, they can choose a safe route. Have lower regen, but more missions more frequently, and gain more ryo to be able to afford future expenses. Many players who play on mobile or aren't as serious might take this route and enjoy it better.

Ultimately the leveling system should change from one where you have a maximum potential number of missions the second to sign up, to a system where your effort in PvE and PvP gameplay makes more of an impact than anything.

 

4. I liked how you ignored the immersion points pretty quickly. Regardless of if players should/shouldn't be able to do it, it makes no viable sense. A player from a completely neutral village is just allowed to stand in your village, waiting to inform another player (or the same one) that there are members awake in the village? Or furthermore, a player can have a completely unattackable alt in the village to let them know where everyone is?

If anything is unfair, it's this system. Genin have no purpose for Scouting Area to begin with unless you're abusing this feature to get kills. Genin cannot be attacked, and therefore have zero reason to be in the PvP scene.

 

5. 

 

 

Ryo Increase- Serves no function, Genin houses, items, and hospital bills are more than low enough as is, there is no legitimate reason to increase the ryo gains, not any reason WHY having a sensei would increase ryo gains from a logical point of veiw, your just giving extra ryo to people who have scouting alts.

 

This would be what I am referencing. You stated that it has no function, so I was giving you the reasons why it would serve a function. Instead of giving another form of currency that would impact the game more - VF, Reputation Points, or Popularity Points - Ryo seems pretty minimal. Adding additional ryo/mission gains would simply be a low-impact incentive for Genin and Senseis. 

 

Refer to an above statement regarding missions, about it becoming a system of effort rather than potential time.

Genin as it is, is an okay rank. It includes many new features that keeps new players engaged, and honestly, it is a fun feature. But we're not talking about Genin. We're talking about the Sensei system, and what should/shouldn't be added. Right now you have it in your mind that this system is functional, when it isn't in any way other than Role-play. Just like with all systems, this needs more content and incentives to keep it engaging for all players.

 

Things that are good ideas for the Sensei system:
1. Chuunin/EJ Student buffs

2. Viewing Student stats (doesn't really matter, Students can just screenshot it..)

3. Sensei Board (If it works like a Help Wanted thing, that might be interesting, otherwise it will most likely be another useless chat)

4. Extra missions as well as decreased mission timers

5. Increased ryo/training gain for having a Sensei

6. Diplomacy gain for Sensei and Student?

7. Item Shop reduction

8. If keeping the Scout Area with Genin, give it a purpose. Maybe a tutorial through the professions, making early items.

9. Just more content all around.

 

There's a lot that needs to happen in TNR to make it overall more appealing, and to get a larger population base. The Sensei system as it is, I see zero point to it. I can help every newcomer (and I do) whenever I can. Guidance is not limited to the Sensei feature, so it needs some genuine functional support to make it an engaging system that brings content to Senseis and Students alike.

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A player from a completely neutral village is just allowed to stand in your village, waiting to inform another player (or the same one) that there are members awake in the village? Or furthermore, a player can have a completely unattackable alt in the village to let them know where everyone is?

 

If anything is unfair, it's this system. Genin have no purpose for Scouting Area to begin with unless you're abusing this feature to get kills. Genin cannot be attacked, and therefore have zero reason to be in the PvP scene.

I absolutely agree with this.

 

As far as the whole discussion about PvE not having a place in TNR well I think that is just fooey. PvE can be a great pass time, and help prepare for PvP. It increases activity of otherwise non active players which will increase PvP. To say that PvE will not improve PvP, I think, is just misguided. PvE can add new dynamics to gameplay in a way that PvP cannot and vice versa. Even in the current system, PvE map squares are a regular place to check for PvP.

Edited by Link

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Guest Faithy

Extra slots for students as a Gold Fed user!

 

genins have 4 jutsus

 

I tend to agree that sensei should be left alone mostly.

 

I like Nuktuks idea of a mission activated by the student and finished by the sensei. It could be a daily thing to keep new players logging on.

 

If there were baseline benefits that didn't increase over time I think that would be a better model, otherwise prepare to pay $20 to have a sensei with max stat boosts hahaha

 

giving an extra mission to sensei and stundet is unfair to chuunins who cannot be sensei nor student. 

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So Im going to ignore all the topics of pvp/pve for genins. 

..

That being said Sensei and Student. My favorite post here was Azrael's. 

 

Make Chuunin have Sensei ability as well then make the student slots go as follows:

 

Chuunin- 1 student slot (think Iruka Sensei to Naruto relationship)

 

Jounin- 3 student slots

 

EJ- 5 student slots

 

I should state that I am a perma-chuunin. As a Genin who wanted to learn the game, I received a Jounin Sensei. Who was a great sensei, BUT he had no idea anything about the Chuunin rank. I found myself going to ask Lucy, Azrael, Kenshin, SarahMcgee every possible thing i could. Even people with the same BL as me could not help me out because I was planning on holding at chuunin. This is a much much needed feature for Chuunin to be able to Sensei students even if it is only one. 

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Whoah. This sparked quite the discussion while I slept.

 

When quoting large posts, please use the Spoiler function:

 

[ spoiler ] Remove the spaces and add the text you want to quote.[ /spoiler ]

 

 

I don't really like wall-o-texts so I'm keeping this short.

  • Quests for Genin once a Sensei is taken.
    This should be doable. Rewards are debatable and I'll dabble on them, but some PvE content for genins isn't a bad idea.
  • Increased ryo.
    Not happening. A genin is well capable of making more ryo than he'll ever need at his rank with relative ease. If the argument is "but it's a ryo alt for my Chuunin!" than you need to rank it up to chuunin to meet your needs. Same goes for other ranks. Genin ryo-gains fit genin-ryo needs, not the needs of a higher rank.
  • Increased stat gains, increased regen or extra missions or decreased timers.
    Genins rank fast enough, it doesn't take a lot of time or effort to rank to chuunin. Decreased timers fell into one of the previous Town Hall discussions so I'm leaving it at that. Extra missions? No, but the Quests might give them a little extra.
  • Item shop reduction
    ...Why? Genin life is really cheap. Even for a weapon user.
  • Scouting
    Genin scouting is going to be removed. But, normal scouting is getting changed in the process, so no raging over that please.
  • Sensei/Student Board
    I like this one, it would make finding a sensei a lot easier, or a student for that matter. Shouldn't be to hard.
  • Diplomacy for graduating students.
    This was a core 2 feature which disappeared with Sensei, I don't see a reason to why not return this feature. This feature also had a student list and how much respect they gave, which should be readded.
  • Viewing stats.
    This....has a purpose? If so I really don't see it.

TL:DR

This is approved:

  • Quests for students.
  • Sensei/Student board
  • Diplomacy for graduation
  • Apprentice for Chuunin (plausible)

NOTE: Sensei is not supposed to be a feature that blows genins out of the water and make it a really good rank, it is, in the end a starter rank. And a starter rank it should stay.
Adding things for senseis isn't bad, but again, they shouldn't be excessive. Added Diplomacy translate in the ability to do small crimes which yield more ryo than errands.

 

I thank you all for your contribution and I'll take this debate to the C-corner.

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