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Theory: How to Set Prices for your Crafted Products!

Ryo Prices Value Economics Theory Tryhard Speculations

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#1 SayszarTempest

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Posted 15 August 2018 - 04:01 PM

Introduction
 
Yeah. I've been on and off working on this for some time now, but I think I've finally made all the progress I can. So here!
 
The purpose of this thread is to discuss TNR economics and the theory of objective pricing-- i.e setting prices based on tangible information about the costs of the commodity in question, rather than solely off intuition and subjective market rates. Any and all contributions, comments, questions and remarks concerning this are welcome!
 
---
 
How Valuable is Ryo?
 
My theory starts here. Ryo is a currency type resource, meaning it's value is determined by it's purchasing power: X amount of ryo is worth Y amount of product/services, as of so and so time period. 
To quantify, or atleast give a general tangible value for the purchasing power of Ryo, we need to consider two key things and link them: Taps and Sinks.
 
Ryo Taps are what generate Ryo into the game, literally.

  • Errands & Crimes
  • Certain Quests (e.g Daily EM)
  • Certain Logbook Orders
  • Lottery System
  • Cashing player crafted items ('Sell' option gives 45% of the item's stated 'Value' as ryo per piece)

Ryo Sinks are what delete ryo from the game.

  • Jutsu Training
  • Hospital Bribes
  • Ramen Purchases
  • System Taxes (GM, Trade, Repairs)

For a convolution free estimate of the value of ryo, we will only consider the major Tap and Sink of the game in this post.
 
Taps
 Errands alone will be our standard, so not including Crimes in the calculations
 

Spoiler

Errands cost pools. Pools are Stamina and Chakra points. Collectively, I will refer to them as Action Points (Ap).
 
1 Errand run costs 5Ap to give about 8.8 Ryo approximately.
1 Errand = 5Ap = 8.8ryo

1Ap = ~2ryo

Sinks

Spoiler

 For the following, unless otherwise stated, Chuunin (base) values will be used as standard.
 
Jutsu on average cost approximately 50,000 Ryo per level.
 
Training costs increase by an increment every level trained, however, we shall ignore that in favor of a rough estimate instead.
 
If 1Ap = 0.5 Errands = 2ryo
[x]Ap = 50,000ryo
= 25,000Ap/JLv. (Jutsu Level)



25k pools are needed to generate the 50k ryo needed to level up a {C-rank} Chuunin jutsu by 1.

---
 
Standard of Value
 Necessary parameters and their values have been listed. In order to link the Tap and Sink to determine value, we require a common denominator to serve as the converting standard of worth.
 
This is Time(s).
 
Time Standard
 Regeneration rate is measured in Pools per minute (Ap/min)
 
Convert to seconds(s)
480/60 = 8
 
1 second generates 8Ap
*1sec = 8Ap
 
Standardized Relations

1sec = 8Ap = 16ryo (= 200Hp)

Now to relate to Jutsu Level (Sink) standard
1sec = 8Ap
[x]sec = 25,000Ap
            = 3125secs
:. 1 JLv. = ~52mins

It takes about 52 minutes approximately to generate enough pools to convert to ryo to level up a jutsu by 1, using *standard regen.

*Reminder: Chuunin base values are adopted as standard.
 
Crux
 So now to relate the Taps & Sinks to rendered services and crafted items and finally allocate appropriate prices objectively.
 
Necessary data we need for this are:

  • Ryo/Duration Costs (R/DC)
  • Material Costs
  • Rank Multiplier Index (RMI)

1. Ryo/Duration Cost is the value in ryo of time spent crafting in relation to the major Ryo sink all players are subject to.
 
If a Jutsu level costs 52mins,
:. 52 minutes of crafting should roughly equate 50,000 Ryo to be relevant income.
 
52mins = 50,000ryo
1min = [x]ryo


Standard R/DC = ~960ryo/min

One minute of crafting is approximately worth 960 Ryo.

2. Materials are of two types:

  • Raw(RMat)
  • Component(CMat)

Raw Materials are usable gathered resources like processed Leather and Copper.
 
Component Materials are simply ones that are crafted from Raw Materials to comprise a more complex product e.g Hardened Leather, Steel Armor Studs.
 
Raw Materials can be Component Materials but not vise versa. In such case, Raw Materials are considered Primary Component Mats.
Sorry for any confusion, outlining this is necessary I think.
 
Raw Materials have a worth dependant on a Variable Factor!
 
This variable factor is something that I can't help but admit is somewhat reliant on subjective opinion. It is what I dub Rarity Factor - How hard it is to find.
 

Spoiler

Thus here, I ask the appropriate professionals in the general playerbase of TNR to use the format and decide on a standard. You get the idea.
 
Don't factor ranks as a a rarity enhancer though, that will be addressed in the ending sections of this post. So treat all raw materials as if they were obtainable by all ranks.
 
Component Material worth are more straight forward to determine.

CMat value = [Total sum of constituent RMat(& Secondary CMat if applicable) value] + [R/DC × Total Craft duration]

Context:
For example, let's take the C-rank Armorsmith CMat Hardened Leather.
 
Hardened Leather -> 2 Leather + 10 mins craft duration
 
Total RMat Value = 2(1000ryo*) = 2000ryo
R/DC × Craft Duration = 960 × 10
 
:. The value of Hardened Leather = [2000] + [960 × 10] = 11,600 Ryo/pc. ---- 580,000 Ryo/stk.
 
Seems pretty fair and reasonable don't you think? And the objectivity is there to make it geniune.
 
*Cost of Leather due to it's predetermined rarity and RMI. This value is a proposed one drawn from the spreadsheet attached.
Note R/DC is measured in Ryo per minutes for convenience.

 
However. We are not quite done yet.
 
3. Rank Multiplier Index
 No I haven't forgotten or overlooked differences in rank base regen and Jutsu Training Costs. As a matter of fact, it was trying to figure out a way to factor it appropriately that delayed this post for about 4 months.
My Eurika solution is the RMI.
 
It's a value used to multiply the standard R/DC and RMat Rarity figures when dealing with ranks other than Chuunin.
 

Spoiler

 Based on* 
*Avg. B-rank Jutsu = 100,000 Ryo - 92mins using 550
*Avg. A-rank Jutsu = 300,000 Ryo - 200mins using 750

**Note that R/DC appears to be a value double that of regen. rate. More accurately though, it is the ryo value of regen/min. I just used Jutsu costs as a way to bring things into context.
 
The R/DC of all three major ranks are then ratiod with C-rank being standard. This gives us the RMI of each of those ranks.

C-rank - 1
B-rank - 1.1458
A-rank - 1.5625

So, to get the appropriate price value for your rank, you calculate prices in Chuunin C-rank standards, then multiply your final value by your respective RMI.
Bear in mind, RMI application applies to the crafted product's required rank, NOT yours. If you're an EJ and you craft Chuunin gear, you're meant to sell that Chuunin gear at C-rank price rates, not A-rank.
 
E.g of RMI application. Let's just pretend Hardened leather and it's CMats are EJ restricted items not Chuunin.
Simply;
 11,600 × 1.5625 = 18,125 Ryo/pc ---- 906,250 Ryo/stk in A-rank rates.
 
Still seems pretty fair don't you think??
 
Conclusion
 
We already got the concept down, and grasp the idea, now to apply it to all player crafted items and we have an actually functioning chart of values for reference in trading.
Our final equation for the base value in ryo of crafted products is as follows;
 
Product Base Ryo Value = [(Sum total of the ryo worth of all raw and component materials used) + (Standard Ryo per duration cost value multiplied by the total craft duration in minutes)] × [The craft's appropriate Rank Multiplier Index]

Product Base Ryo value = [(Sum RMat & CMat value) + (R/DC × Total craft duration)] × [Product RMI]

The way things have been calculated uses Time as your cost of rendering any service and crafting any product, when you boil it down. If you follow the resulting rates exactly, then that's sorta like buying a sales item for #50 and selling it for #50. Your profit rates are up to you. Factors that hearken people to you if your rates are higher than others include: Diligence, Speed, Convenience for the buyer, Integrity, Propinquity etc. etc.

 

Value for player rendered services such as if anyone charges to be a personal healer, Village runner for ferrying products accross villages etc etc., Haven't been detailed in this post sadly, but I believe this to have laid foundations for any future speculations.

 

I hope the theory guide has been on use to you all.


Edited by SayszarTempest, 15 August 2018 - 04:10 PM.

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But yknow.... 

whatevs <_< 


#2 Arphee

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Posted 15 August 2018 - 04:24 PM

This would be a lot more impressive if the economy were more balanced, our inflation rates weren't so high, and we had a global marketplace for items rather than  direct village markets.

TL;DR 

Game economy doesn't even matter


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#3 Khione

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Posted 15 August 2018 - 11:08 PM

I like it, and appreciate that you put forth the effort to create something like this for us.
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#4 Atar

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Posted 20 August 2018 - 01:37 PM

Exceptional work should not be repeated this is far from broken.


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#5 saru

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Posted 22 August 2018 - 04:58 PM

I like math, this guy gets a like from me!

Too bad that what beardman said is true tho...


Edited by saru, 22 August 2018 - 04:59 PM.

Most balanced game ever. Taijutsu beats all. Nothing makes sense.


#6 Rakusai

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Posted 08 October 2018 - 03:34 AM

As I was thinking how to make the ryo currency into a relevant ninja world currency, we can:

1. Have  monthly taxes.

 

We gain ryo by errands or stealing and then we lose them by buying whatever's on the store. Too simplistic. 
The village kage may tax its citizens like Sim City style (adjusting taxes from 1%-20%) so the kage can use it to buy buff or structures for the village.

We do have a present feature for that, but we can make a category (raiding points for offensive stats, ryo taxes for support stats).

 

 

2. Bring down the prices of products such as houses into something affordable.

 

Yes, houses in real life is expensive, especially if you're trying to build a freaking mansion in the middle of New York, but we can always introduce a flexible payment of installments: If you can't pay the weekly rent, you'll lose it. It could be a rent-to-own or a permanent lease, its up to the game coders or admins or whoever is/are in-charge (Has Terr returned?).
 

 

In summary, this is a ninja stat old school RPG and economics should be in the minimum... but since this game has long become a community, it doesn't hurt to make the game play a bit complex - at least in terms of economics.

I should have elaborated some of the points here, but it'll be too long and I'm afraid nobody will read it.  :D  
 


Edited by Rakusai, 23 October 2018 - 07:27 AM.

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#7 Aelin

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Posted 08 October 2018 - 05:39 PM

I was thinking to make the ryo currency into a relevant ninja world currency, we can:

1. Have  monthly taxes.

 

We gain ryo by errands or stealing, we lose them by buying whatever's on the store. Too simplistic. 
The village kage may tax its citizens like Sim City style (adjusting taxes from 1%-20%) so the kage can use it to buy buff or structures for the village.
We do have a present feature for that, but we can make a category (raiding points for offensive stats, ryo taxes for support stats).

 

 

2. Bring down the prices of products such as houses into something affordable.

 

Yes, houses in real life is expensive, especially if you're trying to build a freaking mansion in the middle of New York, but we can always introduce a flexible payment of installments: If you can't pay the weekly rent, you'll lose it. It could be a rent-to-own or a permanent lease, its up to the game coders or admins or whoever is/are in-charge (Has Terr returned?).
 

 

In summary, this is a ninja stat old school RPG and economics should be in the minimum... but since this game has long become a community, it doesn't hurt to make the game play a bit complex - at least in terms of economics.

I should have elaborate some of the points here, but it'll be too long and I'm afraid nobody will read it.  :D  
 

How about first you come back and heal us ffs :angry:  :D

 

I like the idea on tax but it's pretty tricky cause 1. what if villagers don't pay and 2. what if some don't go around making munniz


Edited by Aelin, 08 October 2018 - 05:40 PM.

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#8 Rakusai

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Posted 16 October 2018 - 08:12 AM

How about first you come back and heal us ffs :angry:  :D

 

I like the idea on tax but it's pretty tricky cause 1. what if villagers don't pay and 2. what if some don't go around making munniz

 

1. What if Villagers don't want to pay?

 

The villagers shall be taxed mandatory basis because.. well... its tax. It should be made automatic in this game as per the village Kage's wishes (Kage's should be given higher options in this game. I really want to discuss this in a more thorough manner, but that's for another tread).

 

Tax is the lifeblood of the village(nation). If its not mandatory, that'll be mere contributions.

 

There are already features in this game that the players may use if they don't want to pay the tax percentage set by the kage:

1. Kick their kage out of office;

2. Change new village;

3. Stay Outlaw;

4. Use socializing skills; and

5. Etc.

 

Also, we can introduce new features such as: 

- Players may not be taxed if their account is already 7 days inactive (Villager can use this as a sign of protest)

- Genins and Academy Students are tax exempted.

- Villagers will be taxed every 24hrs with cash in hand plus cash in bank regardless of the transaction within the day.

- The villager may reach a negative ryo state on the 1st day, and the subsequent days just 1ryo. (I have to explain this more, but...)
 

2. What if some don't go around making munniz?

- if you got zero ryo within 24hrs, you won't get taxed.

 

Hopefully, this will make the Ryo currency relevant somewhat.

 

Thank you for your time reading.  :wub:


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#9 Aelin

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Posted 16 October 2018 - 11:34 PM

1. What if Villagers don't want to pay?

 

The villagers shall be taxed mandatory basis because.. well... its tax. It should be made automatic in this game as per the village Kage's wishes (Kage's should be given higher options in this game. I really want to discuss this in a more thorough manner, but that's for another tread).

 

Tax is the lifeblood of the village(nation). If its not mandatory, that'll be mere contributions.

 

There are already features in this game that the players may use if they don't want to pay the tax percentage set by the kage:

1. Kick their kage out of office;

2. Change new village;

3. Stay Outlaw;

4. Use socializing skills; and

5. Etc.

 

Also, we can introduce new features such as: 

- Players may not be taxed if their account is already 7 days inactive (Villager can use this as a sign of protest)

- Genins and Academy Students are tax exempted.

- Villagers will be taxed every 24hrs with cash in hand plus cash in bank regardless of the transaction within the day.

- The villager may reach a negative ryo state on the 1st day, and the subsequent days just 1ryo. (I have to explain this more, but...)
 

2. What if some don't go around making munniz?

- if you got zero ryo within 24hrs, you won't get taxed.

 

Hopefully, this will make the Ryo currency relevant somewhat.

 

Thank you for your time reading.  :wub:

I love this! You should be a lawyer! Oh. wait.


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#10 Nepgear

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Posted 17 October 2018 - 10:10 PM

There are already features in this game that the players may use if they don't want to pay the tax percentage set by the kage:

1. Kick their kage out of office;

2. Change new village;

3. Stay Outlaw;

4. Use socializing skills; and

5. Etc.

 

Also, we can introduce new features such as: 

- Players may not be taxed if their account is already 7 days inactive (Villager can use this as a sign of protest)

- Genins and Academy Students are tax exempted.

- Villagers will be taxed every 24hrs with cash in hand plus cash in bank regardless of the transaction within the day.

- The villager may reach a negative ryo state on the 1st day, and the subsequent days just 1ryo. (I have to explain this more, but...)

So, what keeps me from storing my ryo on an outlaw / genin alt? (Apart from not playing the game of course.)


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#11 Rakusai

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Posted 19 October 2018 - 03:49 AM

I love this! You should be a lawyer! Oh. wait.

 

Believe it or not, Tax Law is not my strongest practice... hahahaha... huhuhuhuhu....

 

So, what keeps me from storing my ryo on an outlaw / genin alt? (Apart from not playing the game of course.)

 

I sincerely think that's an interesting point.

 

For Genin alt: We should allow this.

Situation: While your genin alt would pile up cash (in a form of tax avoidance, but definitely not Al Capone's Money Laundering), your main chuunin/jounin/EJ will eventually need that ryo... and when it does, you'll get hit by the tax set by the village kage. There's no escaping tax.... hue hue hue hue...

 

For outlaw alt: We should also allow this.

Situation: Get your main outside the village while carrying bunch of loads of ryo and then your outlaw alt robs you... you wont get taxed but what will happen to your village ninja main's development? Usually, we get an outlaw alt to sustain the main's needs but not the other way around.

 

If its on reverse, it just means that your outlaw account is your main and we shouldn't tax the player playing the outlaw game.    

 

I was actually thinking if the same tax feature should be extended to the outlaws, but I think it'll ruin the outlaw's game play of being individualistic and no-strings-attached path of pillage, plunder and rap (yes, rap. Like Eminem). We should keep the "high risk-high return" concept to them.

 

But what if the tax feature did extend to outlaws? Does this mean the outlaw boss becomes a mob boss of sorts? Would he/she the unifying force of pillage, plunder and rap? I have no idea. I hope somebody will give a good take on this. 

 

Thanks to Sayszar for the effort of opening this tread. 


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#12 Aelin

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Posted 20 October 2018 - 05:13 PM

This tax idea is pretty good if a village wants to organize specific goals for villagers to aim at (contests for raiding, resources reduction etc) and it will reduce the time consumption of looking for sponsors. Sure, you'd get a few ryo out at the end of the month/week, however you have a chance of obtaining a bigger gain in the end?


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