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Town Hall: Sensei and Students


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#21 Silvess

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Posted 07 August 2015 - 10:58 PM

 

20% not 2%, but i assume that was a typo, but this seems acceptable to me so long as it doesn't effect Mission gains.

 

no no , i meant 2% , so that it doesnt apple THAT much . 20% would be OP in my opinion , it would just make Genins to hold rank.....

 

Thanks Manuster ^^


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#22 AnotherNinja

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Posted 07 August 2015 - 11:16 PM

Since the whole group mission thing is apparently not possible, you could consider giving the sensei a boost from errands, while say genin get discounts at the hospital and ramen stands instead. (Kakashi buying all of Naruto's ramen.) Maybe even all the item shop stuff as well.
Obviously the biggest problem is people claiming students and not helping them, and claiming long-since-inactive students.
Maybe make a check-box for the genin so they can say if their sensei is helpful or not? (With tips and guidance in the wording, so they actually consider that.)
This would also help out with EJ complaining about having no one to kill, all those chuunin ryo alts would really want to rank up for more ryo. Yay!
 
As per stat gains, I think senseis giving less of a boost for offenses they're not specialized in compared to the rest of the stats is a great suggestion. 
I personally never chose a specialisation, since I've not been forced to do so.
 
As per diplomacy gain for graduated students, I really hope that in this core it would be based on the genin's stats. AKA a strong genin gives you the max amount, while a really weak genin ranking up with just the bare miminum, they can get none or lose respect. (That would only happen if stat boosts were implimented. As of now it's better to rank up right away still. Besides being murdered 20 times every 5 minutes with super tiny pools thing, that is. :D)



#23 Arphee

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Posted 07 August 2015 - 11:31 PM

This would also help out with EJ complaining about having no one to kill, all those chuunin ryo alts would really want to rank up for more ryo. Yay!
 
As per diplomacy gain for graduated students, I really hope that in this core it would be based on the genin's stats. AKA a strong genin gives you the max amount, while a really weak genin ranking up with just the bare miminum, they can get none or lose respect. (That would only happen if stat boosts were implimented. As of now it's better to rank up right away still. Besides being murdered 20 times every 5 minutes with super tiny pools thing, that is. :D)

 

I dont see how this would encourage people to rank up, increasing Ryo gains at genin just makes them a more viable alternative to the relative safety of a syndicate ryo alt...but again if they implement it i wont complain, i have the most to gain by genin getting ryo buffs lol.

Diplomacy gains can work, it allows people to get the rep necessary for kage ETC without having to spend pools on diplomacy or errands on their main, and doesn't imbalance the game in any way, stat based gains though seems like a silly idea to implement as ideally you'll want your students ranking to chuunin and progressing as quickly as possible (minimum stats for C rank)- or at least that's my teaching methodology, it varies from person to person.

 

no no , i meant 2% , so that it doesnt apple THAT much . 20% would be OP in my opinion , it would just make Genins to hold rank.....

 

Thanks Manuster ^^

 

2% Would be 

Genin PPD: 154,080
Chuunin PPD: 283,680

Training Wep Offense

0%     Genin: 3082 Weapon Offense 54% if Chuunin Gains
+2%   Genin:  3143 Weapon Offense 55% of Chuunin Gains
+5%   Genin: 3236 Weapon Offense  57% Of Chuunin Gains
+10% Genin: 3390 Weapon Offense 60% Of Chuunin Gains
+20% 
Genin: 3697 Weapon Offense 65% of Chuunin Gains

0%  Chuunin: 5674 Weapon Offense 100% of Chuunin Gains

 

2% is almost negligible and not worth implementing,  10% seems the most fair, plus  60% is a good round number.


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#24 AnotherNinja

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Posted 07 August 2015 - 11:37 PM

I actually meant the opposite, perhaps it wasn't clear, lol.
 
Genins can have the price of everything reduced, while the sensei or jounin/EJ get an increased payout from errands. (errands only, not small crimes. Or at least one would hope that a sensei wouldn't take a trio of children to rob a bank..) In the sense that they're all doing together, so more errands get done, and more money.
 
It would encourage all the people who are just chuunin ryo alts to at least reach jounin, hopefully?


Edited by AnotherNinja, 07 August 2015 - 11:39 PM.


#25 Arphee

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Posted 07 August 2015 - 11:52 PM

I actually meant the opposite, perhaps it wasn't clear, lol.
 
Genins can have the price of everything reduced, while the sensei or jounin/EJ get an increased payout from errands. (errands only, not small crimes. Or at least one would hope that a sensei wouldn't take a trio of children to rob a bank..) In the sense that they're all doing together, so more errands get done, and more money.
 
It would encourage all the people who are just chuunin ryo alts to at least reach jounin, hopefully?

 

That may encourage some people to rank their alts up, and since Syndicate cant have students it may encourage more people to have their higher ranked alts in villages, which would create more targets for syndicate to rob creating a positive feedback loop,

I guess it could work, though i don't see too many people wasting pools on their mains for added ryo, and people being students on an alt accountr i could see getting neglected quickly as the player logs in to run errands then logs off...


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#26 DoctorBurBen

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Posted 08 August 2015 - 12:28 AM

Seeing as how we're dissecting each other's posts.

 

 

 

1. That all depends on the person who's a sensei, some people don't do anything, others legitimately help out, some people actively seek new players to help teach them the game, others flat out dont take students, you give a man a forge coal and iron and he can make steel with it, if he chooses not to, the fault is with the man, not the provider of said materials

2 & 6. This is a PVP game, always has and always will be, Genin's place are scouting, socializing, running errands ETC, TNR is what it is, you seem to have this notion that Starcraft can also be The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim and Megaman 8 all at once, TNR is a stat-oriented text based PVP game, not WoW, Guildwars 2, or Fallout, if a dog is a dog, dont try to make it into a cat.

3. No, its much more harmful than that, Genin is the choice of absolute safety both of monetary gains and K/D count as well as being able to enter entering PVP with higher base stats to be more competitive in PVP in exchange for slower stat progression. and longer entry time into PVP combat the focus of the game.

4. I completely disagree with this, Genin can, and SHOULD be able to scout for purposes of peoples mains AND alts, scouting serves a legitimate function and gives genin a purpose outside of PVP keeping their village safe, or, co-coordinating with ANBU or other players to have better organized raids- as the genin rank is supposed to represent children, and they cannot attack people, they shouldnt be veiwed as a threat or targeted, and considering you stated lore reasoning and immersion, i would like to point out that Genin scouts are and were a thing in the franchise as well and makes the most sense as murdering children is akin to a warcrime.

5. FINALLY the MEAT AND POTATOES this is going to be a duzie

Ryo Increase- Serves no function, Genin houses, items, and hospital bills are more than low enough as is, there is no legitimate reason to increase the ryo gains, not any reason WHY having a sensei would increase ryo gains from a logical point of veiw, your just giving extra ryo to people who have scouting alts.

Mission Timer Reduction

PRE System revamp[- A disaserusly unfair advantage making chuunin rank absolutely useless before capping genin, MISSIONS are worth more than pools will ever be- one mission a day is better than GR for a week, and your doubling their missions per day- 16 D ranks VS 8 C ranks? The 16 D wins by a MASSIVE margin.

POST System revamp- effectively reduce the effort and input of 5 hours of play IF you do all 10 supposed missions under the new framework to 2.5 hours, this isnt as massively unbalanced as if it were implemented with the current system but still unfair and DECREASES user activity as people who are impatient will only be encouraged to stick arouind half of the time before logging off since their missions are complete, it also wouldnt make sense to suddenly go chuunin and LOOSE that buff.

Extra D Mission - Again, No, missions are immeasurably valuable one additional mission per day would practically make MOOT the Regen increase chuunin provides, if people doubt me ill pull up the old thread that did all of the math on how valuable missions really are so people can see what im talking about.

7. This is the only suggestion of Az's that i wholeheartedly agree with, a daily quest AKIN to EM's for Genin, and potentially their Sensei though as pana has said many many times TNRS AI system is incredibly limited, but REALISTICALLY for Genin, that provides a couple of VF per day to help out their village would be a nice little addition- especially if TNR adjusts regen dynamically based on player population genin included like it used to- which i dont think it does.

Oh and the one she posted while i was typing this mess, about more student slots PER rank and allowing Chuunin to potentially have students. 

 

1. You're only pointing out that the Sensei system has no function. Players can make the choice to "mentor" and teach players about the mechanics without the system. Thus making it an aesthetic option.

 

2. You seem to have the notion that games don't take the best parts from each other and relabel their system so they don't get sued. WoW is a stat-based game (you know, those things that you gain with each level) as is ES (again, those things that you gain from each level, and you spend points into upgrading) as is Fallout (weird, you level up and get skill points?) I don't think I've ever made a correlation between TNR and Megaman or Starcraft, and I haven't played Guildwars. So that being said, TNR is a stat based game, awesome job pointing out. And each of the games you mentioned (aside from Megaman, Starcraft and Guildwars, perhaps) all have leveling systems that increase your performance based on stats. Kinda how TNR does. The difference is the story line, music, PvE, and different applications of the same general aggression class, stealth class, and magic-based classes. 

 

Now that you tried switching the topic around from me stating that players should play how they want and that each rank should have things they enjoy instead of being forced to fit one mold, let's get back on topic. Regardless of this being a PvP game, there is a push for players that want PvE content. Not only that, but there should be genuine content across all ranks that take more than a few hours to get past. So if someone wants to immerse themselves into TNR which draws upon Naruto more than anything for inspiration, then Genin should have more genuine content based on that alone.

 

3. If everyone has access to the same amounts of content then I do not see this as an issue. The game itself is supposed to give multiple training methods, not just one. If someone chooses a method to expedite their progress while another does not, that is not the issue with the game itself. Choosing between having a sensei and receiving buffs/reduced mission timers and choosing to not have a sensei at all should actually have different impacts on your gameplay.

 

4. You agree with this only on the sole factor that you abuse it. If you're going to complain that Genin are completely safe from PvP and are a passive way of generating income without losing anything, it makes zero sense for your stance on this to be in support of Genin having a function in PvP. Additionally, if we're taking our information from Naruto again where those individuals were children, they got into an awful lot of fights. If we're "immersing" ourselves entirely, then we should honestly allow Genin to be attacked. People invading a village wouldn't just leave the children if they wanted to decimate it from the world. Those children would be either enslaved or killed - thank goodness Naruto isn't quite so macabre. 

Just on a game function alone, it is unfair - not to players near their level - but to players above that level. Example, there are multiple genin alts in Shine at the moment that abuse the feature, staying asleep one square from the village, waking up and attacking someone when they see them awake. Or even going so far as to go further into the territory to kill them as they do a mission. This is makes zero sense from a "fairness" standpoint as well as an immersion standpoint.

 

5. Ryo is an incentive gained from missions. In all honesty you could give rare items, reputation points, VF, diplomacy points, extra stats, regen, etc., etc. Ryo seems to be a standard way to give players an incentive. If every player was in fact an alternate account, then you would be right. It serves no purpose. But every player is not going to hold Genin. They haven't in Core 1, they haven't in Core 2, and they haven't in Core 3. So ryo would be put towards better houses/jutsus at later ranks. You will have players w/ Genin alts that actively choose to farm this option, but that is the nature of anything in this game.

 

Again, the mission timer reduction would be available to all Genin. If you're not active in the community, and actively choose not to take advantage of the revamped Sensei system, that is on you.

 

Everything is available to all new players. Whenever you add more content, someone is going to be past the point where they can benefit from the function. That is the nature of an update. Ideally, I would suggest more missions, items that randomly drop that reduce mission timers to all players, etc. That way Genin aren't getting a clear cut advantage over Chuunin. In all honesty, Chuunin (as Az pointed out) should have some degree of mentoring system as well. Getting more content, increasing everyone's gains so they can enjoy more content at higher levels, and giving players an incentive to actually use a system are all needed. This is only the Sensei/Genin systems, and you have to imagination these being upgraded alongside everything else.


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#27 Arphee

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Posted 08 August 2015 - 02:38 AM

1. You're only pointing out that the Sensei system has no function. Players can make the choice to "mentor" and teach players about the mechanics without the system. Thus making it an aesthetic option.

 

2. So that being said, TNR is a stat based game, awesome job pointing out. And each of the games you mentioned (aside from Megaman, Starcraft and Guildwars, perhaps) all have leveling systems that increase your performance based on stats. Kinda how TNR does. The difference is the story line, music, PvE, and different applications of the same general aggression class, stealth class, and magic-based classes. 

 

3.  Choosing between having a sensei and receiving buffs/reduced mission timers and choosing to not have a sensei at all should actually have different impacts on your gameplay.

 

4. Just on a game function alone, it is unfair - not to players near their level - but to players above that level. Example, there are multiple genin alts in Shine at the moment that abuse the feature, staying asleep one square from the village, waking up and attacking someone when they see them awake. Or even going so far as to go further into the territory to kill them as they do a mission. This is makes zero sense from a "fairness" standpoint as well as an immersion standpoint.

 

5. Ryo is an incentive gained from missions. In all honesty you could give rare items, reputation points, VF, diplomacy points, extra stats, regen, etc., etc. Ryo seems to be a standard way to give players an incentive. If every player was in fact an alternate account, then you would be right. It serves no purpose. But every player is not going to hold Genin. They haven't in Core 1, they haven't in Core 2, and they haven't in Core 3. So ryo would be put towards better houses/jutsus at later ranks. You will have players w/ Genin alts that actively choose to farm this option, but that is the nature of anything in this game.

 

Again, the mission timer reduction would be available to all Genin. If you're not active in the community, and actively choose not to take advantage of the revamped Sensei system, that is on you.

 

This is only the Sensei/Genin systems, and you have to imagination these being upgraded alongside everything else.

This gets a bit long and i don't want to stretch the page, reply in the spoilers.

Spoiler




Genin itself as a rank, is a separate discussion, this is for the Sensei system, something intended to act as a mentor program, not core features of genin as a rank, or improvements to the state of genin PVE content or "lack of features"

As it stands my position is as follows, and it seems most everyone agrees more "aesthetic" features to encourage and improve sensei-student relationships is a plus

1. Allow Chuunin to become Sensei
2. Raise EJ student cap to 5 Chuunin to 1
3a Implement small stat training benefit preferably 10% raising genin progression to 60% of chuunin
3b increase percentage for players who match offense with their sensei,  (Prefferably 15% since double the base bonus would be too high)
3 Lower AS and Genin item prices in the store by a small amount (Probably like 10% again)
4 Allow Sensei to view students stats
5 Make Sensei and Opt-in feature instead of every jounin + being veiweed as a sensei
6 Add a sensei board to help players find each other and connect- tavern is archaic when things are actually active
7 implement Sensei's Orders to allow people to write training guidlines and host simple contests Etc for their students
8 Implement a student list, allow players to see their current and past students and track activity

9 Implement Genin daily quest that rewards VF + ryo? (Would be cool if there were a few of them centered around different stat distrobutions to mimic the kinds of stats freshly ranked chuunin would have)

Potential additions
? Allow students to spectate sensei's Battles to learn about PVP
? Reduced mission timers POST mission revamp Eg 15 minutes max 10
? Reduce Ramen and Hospital costs? Kind of unnecessary at genin....but why not right.
 


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#28 Link

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Posted 08 August 2015 - 03:00 AM

I don't know for sure, but it would seem to me that implementing a sensei feature with benefits will just be an overall bad idea. Don't you guys remember core2? charging for players to be their students, the smaller villages will not have enough sensei and players will quit/leave smaller villages to play in larger ones just so they can have the stat boost. I just don't see how the sensei feature will improve this game for new players, it speeds up training for people who decide to stay genin for the protection. I actually have to turn people down from being my student pretty often because I don't have space but I always am able to help them by answering a question or directing them to the tavern/forum/staff.

Spoiler


Edited by Link, 08 August 2015 - 03:51 AM.


#29 DoctorBurBen

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Posted 08 August 2015 - 03:36 AM

Welp. No clue how to use the spoiler thing, so I'll just respond without it.

 

1. Yes, anything that does not serve an actual function in the game - this one being as you said, a stat-based game - is purely aesthetic. Everything you mentioned can be done without even having a Sensei. So, general rule, if you can accomplish doing something without even needing the system in question, the system is unnecessary.

 

2. TNR has meaningless PvP. Multiple threads have shown an interest in PvE features in this MMORPG, suggesting the inclusion of the feature into War, missions, daily events, etc. TNR is an MMORPG in a Beta stage that doesn't currently have many engaging PvE elements. All of your events are generally PvE based, not PvP. Your claim would be more viable if this wasn't the case for the previous cores. Additionally, what I'm saying is instead of staying in the same mold that is currently a sinking ship, we include more features to make the game more presentable. PvE on itself will only grab a portion of the total audience, just like PvP on itself will only grab a portion of the total audience. Instead of neglecting one or the other, having both be engaging and enjoyable like other MMORPGs would be the ideal if we want TNR to have a larger audience.

 

3. In WoW - when I last played in Cataclysm - I did get PvP for capturing objectives and finishing quests centered around PvP. COD does have separate story modes and online modes. But it is not an MMORPG like TNR is. COD doesn't have stats, it has guns that you unlock. COD centers more around the skill of the individual in constantly changing combat scenarios. Essentially, you progress in COD through skill and muscle memory, not through statistical advantages. 

It IS a choice to train effectively. Players can choose to rank up and receive extra regen, launching them closer to Jounin or increasing their HP gain from an EM and a mission with greater buffs, potentially taking their career to Jounin for even further gains. Or, they can choose a safe route. Have lower regen, but more missions more frequently, and gain more ryo to be able to afford future expenses. Many players who play on mobile or aren't as serious might take this route and enjoy it better.

Ultimately the leveling system should change from one where you have a maximum potential number of missions the second to sign up, to a system where your effort in PvE and PvP gameplay makes more of an impact than anything.

 

4. I liked how you ignored the immersion points pretty quickly. Regardless of if players should/shouldn't be able to do it, it makes no viable sense. A player from a completely neutral village is just allowed to stand in your village, waiting to inform another player (or the same one) that there are members awake in the village? Or furthermore, a player can have a completely unattackable alt in the village to let them know where everyone is?

If anything is unfair, it's this system. Genin have no purpose for Scouting Area to begin with unless you're abusing this feature to get kills. Genin cannot be attacked, and therefore have zero reason to be in the PvP scene.

 

5. 

 

 

Ryo Increase- Serves no function, Genin houses, items, and hospital bills are more than low enough as is, there is no legitimate reason to increase the ryo gains, not any reason WHY having a sensei would increase ryo gains from a logical point of veiw, your just giving extra ryo to people who have scouting alts.

 

This would be what I am referencing. You stated that it has no function, so I was giving you the reasons why it would serve a function. Instead of giving another form of currency that would impact the game more - VF, Reputation Points, or Popularity Points - Ryo seems pretty minimal. Adding additional ryo/mission gains would simply be a low-impact incentive for Genin and Senseis. 

 

Refer to an above statement regarding missions, about it becoming a system of effort rather than potential time.

Genin as it is, is an okay rank. It includes many new features that keeps new players engaged, and honestly, it is a fun feature. But we're not talking about Genin. We're talking about the Sensei system, and what should/shouldn't be added. Right now you have it in your mind that this system is functional, when it isn't in any way other than Role-play. Just like with all systems, this needs more content and incentives to keep it engaging for all players.

 

Things that are good ideas for the Sensei system:
1. Chuunin/EJ Student buffs

2. Viewing Student stats (doesn't really matter, Students can just screenshot it..)

3. Sensei Board (If it works like a Help Wanted thing, that might be interesting, otherwise it will most likely be another useless chat)

4. Extra missions as well as decreased mission timers

5. Increased ryo/training gain for having a Sensei

6. Diplomacy gain for Sensei and Student?

7. Item Shop reduction

8. If keeping the Scout Area with Genin, give it a purpose. Maybe a tutorial through the professions, making early items.

9. Just more content all around.

 

There's a lot that needs to happen in TNR to make it overall more appealing, and to get a larger population base. The Sensei system as it is, I see zero point to it. I can help every newcomer (and I do) whenever I can. Guidance is not limited to the Sensei feature, so it needs some genuine functional support to make it an engaging system that brings content to Senseis and Students alike.


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#30 Link

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Posted 08 August 2015 - 03:59 AM

A player from a completely neutral village is just allowed to stand in your village, waiting to inform another player (or the same one) that there are members awake in the village? Or furthermore, a player can have a completely unattackable alt in the village to let them know where everyone is?

If anything is unfair, it's this system. Genin have no purpose for Scouting Area to begin with unless you're abusing this feature to get kills. Genin cannot be attacked, and therefore have zero reason to be in the PvP scene.

I absolutely agree with this.

 

As far as the whole discussion about PvE not having a place in TNR well I think that is just fooey. PvE can be a great pass time, and help prepare for PvP. It increases activity of otherwise non active players which will increase PvP. To say that PvE will not improve PvP, I think, is just misguided. PvE can add new dynamics to gameplay in a way that PvP cannot and vice versa. Even in the current system, PvE map squares are a regular place to check for PvP.


Edited by Link, 08 August 2015 - 04:02 AM.


#31 Guest_Faithy_*

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Posted 08 August 2015 - 06:29 AM

Extra slots for students as a Gold Fed user!

 

genins have 4 jutsus

 

I tend to agree that sensei should be left alone mostly.

 

I like Nuktuks idea of a mission activated by the student and finished by the sensei. It could be a daily thing to keep new players logging on.

 

If there were baseline benefits that didn't increase over time I think that would be a better model, otherwise prepare to pay $20 to have a sensei with max stat boosts hahaha

 

giving an extra mission to sensei and stundet is unfair to chuunins who cannot be sensei nor student. 



#32 Apprime

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Posted 08 August 2015 - 06:33 AM

So Im going to ignore all the topics of pvp/pve for genins. 

..

That being said Sensei and Student. My favorite post here was Azrael's. 

 

Make Chuunin have Sensei ability as well then make the student slots go as follows:

 

Chuunin- 1 student slot (think Iruka Sensei to Naruto relationship)

 

Jounin- 3 student slots

 

EJ- 5 student slots

 

I should state that I am a perma-chuunin. As a Genin who wanted to learn the game, I received a Jounin Sensei. Who was a great sensei, BUT he had no idea anything about the Chuunin rank. I found myself going to ask Lucy, Azrael, Kenshin, SarahMcgee every possible thing i could. Even people with the same BL as me could not help me out because I was planning on holding at chuunin. This is a much much needed feature for Chuunin to be able to Sensei students even if it is only one. 



#33 Pana

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Posted 08 August 2015 - 11:04 AM

Whoah. This sparked quite the discussion while I slept.

 

When quoting large posts, please use the Spoiler function:

Spoiler

 

I don't really like wall-o-texts so I'm keeping this short.

  • Quests for Genin once a Sensei is taken.
    This should be doable. Rewards are debatable and I'll dabble on them, but some PvE content for genins isn't a bad idea.
  • Increased ryo.
    Not happening. A genin is well capable of making more ryo than he'll ever need at his rank with relative ease. If the argument is "but it's a ryo alt for my Chuunin!" than you need to rank it up to chuunin to meet your needs. Same goes for other ranks. Genin ryo-gains fit genin-ryo needs, not the needs of a higher rank.
  • Increased stat gains, increased regen or extra missions or decreased timers.
    Genins rank fast enough, it doesn't take a lot of time or effort to rank to chuunin. Decreased timers fell into one of the previous Town Hall discussions so I'm leaving it at that. Extra missions? No, but the Quests might give them a little extra.
  • Item shop reduction
    ...Why? Genin life is really cheap. Even for a weapon user.
  • Scouting
    Genin scouting is going to be removed. But, normal scouting is getting changed in the process, so no raging over that please.
  • Sensei/Student Board
    I like this one, it would make finding a sensei a lot easier, or a student for that matter. Shouldn't be to hard.
  • Diplomacy for graduating students.
    This was a core 2 feature which disappeared with Sensei, I don't see a reason to why not return this feature. This feature also had a student list and how much respect they gave, which should be readded.
  • Viewing stats.
    This....has a purpose? If so I really don't see it.

TL:DR

This is approved:

  • Quests for students.
  • Sensei/Student board
  • Diplomacy for graduation
  • Apprentice for Chuunin (plausible)

NOTE: Sensei is not supposed to be a feature that blows genins out of the water and make it a really good rank, it is, in the end a starter rank. And a starter rank it should stay.
Adding things for senseis isn't bad, but again, they shouldn't be excessive. Added Diplomacy translate in the ability to do small crimes which yield more ryo than errands.

 

I thank you all for your contribution and I'll take this debate to the C-corner.


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