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Town Hall: War 2


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#1 Cedzen

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Posted 15 July 2015 - 12:59 PM

As promised, here we will conduct the first part of a focused discussion on how to rewrite the war system, essentially from the ground up. This thread will look at how war will function as a feature. The consequences of war, for both winners and losers, will be discussed in a succeeding thread in the near future.

 

Under no circumstances is this thread to discuss those consequences beyond tangential references and any off-topic comments will be deleted. I will also brook no negativity here; I will not condone sarcastic off hand comments, thinly veiled cynical references, open staff bashing or heated partisanship. For all intents and purposes, this is a conference room where we will stick to the topic at hand impartially and constructively else this conversation will come to a close or responsible parties will be removed from the discussion immediately without any further caution.

 

To guide the discussion, I will begin by laying out the basic framework of how the war system currently operates:

Spoiler

 

Next, I will list out some options to kickstart things. Feel free to modify or add to these:

Spoiler

 

This discussion is intended to be quick-fire and I want to come to a consensus swiftly, but also thoughtfully. The sooner this concludes, the sooner we can move on to looking at the consequences of war.


Edited by Cedzen, 15 July 2015 - 01:02 PM.




#2 Guest_Faithy_*

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Posted 15 July 2015 - 02:02 PM

Player versus Environment implementation!

 

Here is my idea that I posted in the closed suggestion thread.

 

When war is declared, territories owned by the warring villages will give raiders a chance of encountering/ambushing AI which can be killed for SP. 

 

  • Each rank (chuu+) will have 3 different strength AI. The AI will have names like Farmer, Merchant, Nobleman, Guards, Fisherman, Hunter or just a random Villager. Ranks that have AoE jutsus will for example ambush a Nobleman and his guards at the same time. Or a Hunter and his dogs. 
  • The stronger the AI, the more SP you destroy but... The death of these Ai will never give as much SP destruction as a player kill. Also the AI will not provide any SP healing. 
  • People should have the option to completely ignore these AI in the war page in case some people don't want to participate in the PvE part.
  • A new interface needs to be coded that allows people who encounter these AI to pick between fight or leave (Like wild pokemon) so that weaklings don't get discouraged if they constantly run in to the hardest AI.

You will have defenders who hunt these PvE players within friendly territory... but I am not sure if they should be allowed to heal SP from doing that. We want wars to be a bit faster. Villages that have a lot of territories will have a hard time defending it all so it creates a form of balance between Samui and anyone else.

 

Botting will be discouraged because of the different strength AI, Human defenders and the Fight/Leave interface would be similar to Battle Arena buttons which constantly switches places. 

 

Some war changes:

You will need to edit the "Village claims all the territories" part in the victory conditions.

Also add a White Peace option which just stops the war without anyone surrendering.

Get rid of the vassal system! It is the worst idea since Mod Jumping for 30 rep.

 

 

 

 

 

This will make sense because in War... the civilian population suffers the most. Ninjas will hunt down the enemy village people and slaughter them causing damage in the form of removing vital citizens from the village and inflicting emotional damage to their AI families. 

 

If this does not create more activity during wartime... I do not know what will. 

 

 

I think I forgot a bunch of stuff... but there you have it. 


Edited by Faithy, 15 July 2015 - 02:08 PM.


#3 AzraelsGrace

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Posted 15 July 2015 - 02:06 PM

For the most part the system and its consequences are fine. Things that need to change ,however, are:

-overall SP for villages needs to be lowered and equal regardless of the amount of structures they have

-the village with the highest SP cannot restore SP. (This can change to other villages during the course of the war) this will make it so super powers cannot just blast down villages and still maintain full SP

-Vassaled villages are auto released after 1 week instead of needing to fight their war out. Either that, or keep it as is, and after 2 weeks they get auto released. With the current system, its highly unlikely Shroud will ever be free after this war.

Those are my thoughts for now, ill add more as the discussion progresses.

Edit: in regards to faithys idea "Also add a White Peace option which just stops the war without anyone surrendering."

It should still have a penalty such as both villages lose a random structure level.

Edited by AzraelsGrace, 15 July 2015 - 02:09 PM.

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#4 Guest_Faithy_*

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Posted 15 July 2015 - 02:17 PM

Edit: in regards to faithys idea "Also add a White Peace option which just stops the war without anyone surrendering."

It should still have a penalty such as both villages lose a random structure level.

 

There is already a condition which says if a certain % of Sp is destroyed village will lose structures and/or regen. If war is declared by mistake and instantly white peaced, villages shouldn't get punished. The increased Sp destruction from my idea will hurt all villages :) War is hell after all. 



#5 ThunderCat

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Posted 15 July 2015 - 02:21 PM

  • Maybe have a time limit on war, some people say it's a strain on their minds or something so the longer it takes the worse they feel
  • More sp recovered for defending because it's pretty much pointless. Recovering like 3-10 points for killing someone but dying once costs you 15-25
  • That also applies to CFH situations, if you don't DKO you lose a bunch since they're ranked lower than you.

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#6 Nexilus

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Posted 15 July 2015 - 03:38 PM

  • Initial structure point counts are calculated by a formula which considers the amount of structures each village has. The more structures your village has accumulated, the more SP you will begin with.
    I agree with Azrael. Structure points should be equal amongst all villages just for time sakes. Otherwise, take Samui for example, knowing them and any other sane village, they'd upgrade their village to the best they can with the newly acquired VFs, which will spike up the structure of their village which then would prolong war - since they have more points to destroy. Equalizing them would also balance up the villages in terms of weakest and strongest, otherwise it'd be a fight of 1million SP vs 100k SP. (Exaggerated, but you get the point). If this is rejected, I would also like to see some sort of time limit to war as stated in the previous thread. Whoever has the most SP out of the warring villages will be declared the winner, as that will give the village something strategical to plan, like when would be the best to strike, who to lock off, who will be in charge of what, etc.
     
  • On everyone's private profile, there is a section for structure point activity (SPA). SPA -should- consist of the aggregate of SP you destroy, SP you restore, SP you allow to be destroyed and SP you allow to be restored. To prevent abuse, users who acquire an aggregate SPA of -100, will no longer register any structure point activity until their SPA goes back above -100 or their village's role in a war concludes.
    I'm a little worried about the -100 SPA stuff, and I think it should be removed. If this is what I'm thinking of, then what is stopping the ubers or at least inactive ubers (example ex-Yaseen) to make it so that they are below 100 for the sakes of them camping in the enemy village and stalling the rest of the people / killing people and letting people kill him so that he's -100 so the rest of the destroying village can just camp and deplete?

    .... Did that make sense D:
    Ummm, let's do a visual example:

    Yaseen16 (with over -100 SPA) --> **Sits in Samui and just blocks out all the ubers that the rest of the village can't destroy --> over -100 SPA gets slightly close to -100 --> proceeds to die a whole bunch to get it back to below via initiating attack and then attacking himself thus causing him to lose --> repeat ** 
     
  • Entering into an alliance with a village that is at war will automatically declare war on the village(s) that your ally is at war with. In the same vein, declaring war on a village will also declare war on its allies. The penalty for engaging in alliance DURING war is set at 25% of initial SP + 1 random village upgrade. This will be imposed on the village that extends the offer of alliance and will execute once the offer is accepted.
    On the note of where declaring war on a village will also declare war on its allies... if logic flows (and mine is crappy), correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't that prompt the alliance people from the victim village declare war on the aggressor, thus making them another aggressor in the war? Unless pre-war stuff doesn't affect the during-war script - or section of the coding.
     
  • White Peace option. -- Faithy
    I actually really like this suggestion. Mistakes happen, and people get curious to see what will happen when war is declared and what not. Since they'll already be punished for initiating the war, getting out, as Azrael said, should cost a structure as well... even if it was instantly white peace'd. Also, in addition to this, maybe perhaps a bigger punishment should white peace happens halfway through a war. Just to prevent warring villages to have a war, but not face the consequences / reward of losing / winning?
     
  • Village with the highest SP cannot restore SP. --Azrael
    Up to a certain point I guess. If the SP isn't equalized at the beginning of war, then I think the village with the highest SP shouldn't be allowed to restore SP until they are down by... I dunno, 25% of their original structures. Kind of like a handicap for being the strongest? Not entirely fair, but plausible suggestion? Of course, it is possible that the higher structure village only has weaklings since all the ubers left / quit, but then the weaker villagers probably deserves being beaten if they can't utilize the higher structures in a benefitting way.
     
  • Vassaled villages get auto released after 1 week. --Azrael
    Although I believe it's, if they lose the territory battle (unsure if it's automatically prompt or something else), vassal villages are vassalized again for another 24 hours and then they are released, or not... regardless I agree that they should be auto released after a week. Losing again to the winning village - assuming it's not a close war - would be like bullying in a sense. Now if it was a super close war, then the battle to be free MIGHT work. The best thing would be for it to NOT be a territory battle but another mini SP depletion if the auto release suggestion is rejected. I suggest anything but territory battle because then all the ranks would be able to help each other out like in war instead of being separated and fought against your own rank with a less than complex + hard-to-beat AI.
     
  • Territories affecting war.
    I honestly... don't really understand this. So the more territories you have, it's a disadvantage during war? How D:
    Are you talking about multiple territory battles happening at the same time and whoever can deplete the most wins?
     
  • CFH situations. (Sort of an off-topic)
    Spoiler

     

 


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#7 vanish

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Posted 15 July 2015 - 03:43 PM

One thing that might be cool is AI's "guards" in enemy villages during war times.
 
These Guards will only attack Enemy villagers (not neutral villages and not outlaws).
 
The purpose of these AI's would not be to provide THAT much of a Challenge, but still be enough to make a dent
in most raiders HP and slow every raider down.
 
Basically you could make them as difficult as 1 Mission AI based on rank.
 
Chunnin would fight a C ranked AI
jounin would fight a B rank AI
EJ would fight a A rank AI
 
For most people (especially Chunnin) Users have a hard time completing their Missions at the beginning of there rank.
 
In order to make it practical you would have to make it possible for raiders to escape from these battles.
 
I could conceive a user having the possibility of escape within 1-2 rounds... enough to where they can lose some
health, but still be able to raid if they chose to escape.
 
Defeating these AI's will yield a small amount of SP for all users. 
 
Guards can be encountered in the village and one space in either direction from the village.
 
Cons:
 
some users might be discouraged to raid because they are at the beginning of their rank and these AI's might make it difficult enough to where raiding might not be worth it. (this con may be considered a pro so i considered it in the pro section below)
 
Player may abuse the AI's and AI farm (Solution: place a Cap on SP gained from these AI's I.E. users with +50 SPA gain no SP from AI's)
 
Pros: 
slows down all raiders and makes it easier for players in an enemy village to catch/avoid raiders. 
 
(if you consider this a pro) prevents users who would normally get decimated while raiding from dying unnecessarily to defenders. 
 
provides other outlets for raiders to deal SP to an apposing village. (especially for players who don't consider themselves good enough raiders).
 
 
Side note:
The SP damage timer inside a village should be changed.  I understand that TNR Staff wants to be firm on that timer , but 1 minute is a very long time to stand in one place when raiding... I Myself don't risk standing there for more than a few seconds and from what i have observed from other raiders they don't generally do the same.

 

edit:

 

second side note.... winning villages should gain .5 X SP healed .... that way opposing villages can still heal, but if they are in the lead it makes it easier for losing villages to keep up.


Edited by vanish, 15 July 2015 - 04:01 PM.


#8 Shikayaru

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Posted 15 July 2015 - 04:05 PM

PvE War

I kind of like where Faithy is going with AI battles. This would make it easier to involve weaker players, also you enter Samui right now and the only people who ever wake up are guys with over 400mil experience. So if you're lucky, you might be able to stick around long enough to sabotage a point or two. Granted, maybe they deserved to be awarded for being able to keep their weak players asleep so much, but it makes war kind of boring.

 

I would tweak Faithy's idea though to prevent a village from purposefully trying to ignore actual players and only going for AI. We've gone back and fourth to try and figure out what to do with sabotage to make it a fair amount of points, less boring, but still not OP. What if we set the sabotage timer to 30 seconds and then after 30 seconds of AFK, you go into battle against an AI like in Faithy's idea. This would still allow for her PvE idea to work out, but it'd be much harder to avoid opposing villagers entirely.

 

Leading Village Can't Heal SP

I don't really see a benefit from preventing the leading village from healing SP. I mean, I guess it would keep wars shorter by a little bit, but there wasn't a problem with Samui healing too many points in this war. The only reason they have so many points is because of a bug. In truth, their points are pretty low considering how little we raided there when we realized their SP wasn't going down.

 

SP Healed/Destroyed

I'm sorry for sounding like a broken record, but I'm going to harp on this yet again because I think it's important: I think that the amount of points healed/destroyed needs to be a flat rate and not follow the pvp experience system. Here's the thing: if someone can already kill you, then they have an advantage. They don't need to be awarded more points. On the other side of the issue, if someone commonly kills you, and they get more SP healed/destroyed because of your stats, how is it fair for you to get less SP healed/destroyed if you are finally able to kill them? We especially see this problem with CFH. Of course jounin will get the maximum amount of points destroyed/healed when they take down an EJ together, but since an EJ is killing a jounin, the points awarded will be less than if they killed an Elite Jounin. 

 

Amount of SP Healed/Destroyed per Kill

Once again, to prevent abuse of battle holding and CFH issues, I think that the amount of SP Healed or Destroyed per kill should be the same. This way, if you kill one jounin in a CFH and lose to the other, it will net you nothing. Evoli made a good point that with it unbalanced right now, you still net more when you are CFH'd upon in an enemy village. The reason that's still unbalanced is because EJ don't get to choose whether they are CFH'd on or not. That choice is entirely up to the jounin. Also, if I attack a jounin in their own village, I'll net more SP whether they CFH or not. They will never initiate a battle against me in their village because of this, meaning, there will be less CFH battles in the village of the CFHers. You are much more likely to be CFH'd on in your own village because they know that if you ignore them, they can sabotage points, if they attack you, you'll lose even more.

 

I believe in the second Darken war, the only 1v1 war that wasn't bugged, you earned more points for healing than you did destroying, yet that war lasted less than a week. If we're really worried about wars lasting too long, then there are other things we can do to help shorten it. I just see too many ways that stat based SP awards can be unbalanced.

 

Starting Village SP

This is one way we can make wars shorter if we find out that they are too long after making SP healed and destroyed equal. Like I said, I'm not all that worried about wars lasting too long, but if they are after testing this out, then we can look at the average rate destroyed per day and multiply that by 7 to determine the desired starting SP.

 

I agree with Az and Nexi that both villages should start with the same amount. I don't understand how war affects the destruction of structures, but you can just make it so a village with more structures can only lose the same amount as the village with less structures. That way, villages who worked hard for their structure points don't get a disadvantage for their hard work.


Edited by Shikayaru, 15 July 2015 - 04:19 PM.

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#9 Magyoku0

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Posted 15 July 2015 - 04:09 PM

I kinda agree with the side note that vanish mentioned . The SP damage way needs some changes , first of all maybe the timer or at least to change the damage done by each rank . For example making so that a EJ destroys 3 points , a Jounnin destroys 2 points and a chuunin destroys 1 point within 1 min . The higher the rank the higher the hospital bills are depending on individual health . I mean it's kinda logic that the higher a player's rank the more points he destroys by staying in the opposite village .


Edited by Magyoku0, 15 July 2015 - 04:13 PM.

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#10 AzraelsGrace

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Posted 15 July 2015 - 04:20 PM

I like Mags numbers for SP sabotage. 1= chuu, 2= jounin, 3= EJ. 

 

I also agree with Shika. We both stated a flat rate would be best. and it most likely is. the numbers for which have all been provided in the previous Town hall.


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#11 vanish

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Posted 15 July 2015 - 04:27 PM

If anyone is attempting to create ideas involving AI battles i think we should consider CAPing the SP gained by AI in some way in order to prevent entire wars being determined by AI farmers.



#12 Cedzen

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Posted 15 July 2015 - 04:49 PM

Thought: Village Guard AI with some kind of stat copy that appear sporadically when you enter an enemy village's territory during war, killing them can destroy SP - some balance measure would be required of course but that's the idea. Encounter rate could be indexed to village's rob defenses structure which would be returned to its old name of village guard
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#13 Shikayaru

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Posted 15 July 2015 - 04:57 PM

Moving Villages During War

Just want to note that I don't like that villagers can leave their village by ally killing during war. I think it kind of defeats the purpose of preventing them from leaving in the first place. This allows villagers to leave and rob their enemies without fear of giving up SP. Maybe during war make it so people who ally killed are jailed for a few hours. That would prevent players from using their alts to abuse the system as well.



#14 Az.

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Posted 15 July 2015 - 04:58 PM

The sp for kills as they are now would be 5, 15 and 25 for destroying and 1, 5 and 10 for healing. 

The thought of this was weaker players get you less, same players get you around same and stronger players get you more.

 

The thing is,  killing a player who is around the same strength  as you will get   a lot less. Most fights against people of close strength will destroy around 10sp.

Its really rare to be able to destroy more than 15sp. Most same level fights (people that are around the same strength) will destroy around 10 sp.

Same for healing, same level fights will mostly heal 2,3 or 4 sp.

 

So mostly people would be destroying around 10 and killing too weak players gets them 5 as it is. Destroying 15 or above is rare.

 

I dont know the formula, but its not really like killing stronger gets you more than killing weaker.

Since the formula is the same as it is used for pvp exp:

When it was the old pvp number system; killing someone who was tough gave me 1pvp while killing someone who was weaker gave me 2pvp.

The difference between those two was huge too. The one who rewarded 1pvp had lot more hp, better win ration and better stats than the one who gave me 2pvp.


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#15 Boredom

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Posted 15 July 2015 - 05:06 PM

I would like to see the war system bringing in some balance into the game. 
Currently it encourages the strong villages to declare war on weak villages simply to get that 10% regen for a week and further increase the gap. It would be nice to see some limitations to prevent one village from getting too far ahead. This could be done by calculating village strength (Regen, walls and other upgrades, number of active chuunin+ players, village total PVP exp and other values that define village strength) and if the gap is too big make the war not beneficial for the strong village - make the war cost more than winning one would gain.

If we can hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominoes will fall like a house of cards. Checkmate.

#16 vanish

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Posted 15 July 2015 - 05:10 PM

cedzen what do you mean by stat copy? 

 

could this just use the torn battle arena opponents as guards :P


Edited by vanish, 15 July 2015 - 05:18 PM.


#17 AzraelsGrace

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Posted 15 July 2015 - 05:30 PM

a while back I was going to suggest an AI for each village that spawns every 30 minutes that would reward VF. since you are discussing it for War. I'll lay out what I had in mind.

 

There would be 1 ai per village at war. they would spawn every 30 minutes. make it's strength a stat copy of the user. it would destroy 30 SP. (so it would be like 30 minutes of sabotage) 


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#18 vanish

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Posted 15 July 2015 - 05:37 PM

thats ridiculous :P it certainly makes it attractive for all users regardless of exp to run around trying to kill these village AI's 

 

EDIT: ridiculous in a good way


Edited by vanish, 15 July 2015 - 05:37 PM.


#19 Shikayaru

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Posted 15 July 2015 - 06:02 PM

I would be afraid of the war being won simply by whichever village was able to kill the AI exactly every 30 minutes. I'd hate for winning wars to be similar to how missions are now where you have to set alarms and stuff. 

-

Does anyone have any thoughts about my variation of Faithy's suggestion? I think it solves the problem of what to do with sabotage timers as well as allowing PvE battles without avoiding all PvP battles...



#20 vanish

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Posted 15 July 2015 - 08:07 PM

the only problem i have with faithys suggestion is that players can AI farm the crap out of the war. i suggest a CAP of some sort

 

50 SPA yields 0 SP from AI's should be simple enough.

 

But even with a cap there is still the possibility of exploitation, players can abuse the SP system to kill the crap out of there alt until they have -100 SP and then use the AI's to reach the CAP and then kill the crap out of them again.

 

 

EX

 

I have my Alt Theavatar in samui.

 

My main vanish kills the crap out of him until he reach -100 SP

 

i take my alt and have it kill a bunch of AI and get to 0 SP

 

then i move my alt to some random place and kill the crap out of him again until he is at -100 SP

 

Ect. Ect....

 

It is possible to abuse this because i could use my phone to move my alt and my laptop to control my main...

 

I propose a limit on how much SP you can gain from AI enemies in 1 given day.

 

 

Dont think i dont like your idea faithy. This is just what needs to be fixed if it were to be implemented :)


Edited by vanish, 15 July 2015 - 08:07 PM.





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